*** The Car Cleaning Thread ***

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I've never agreed to pay - my personal stance is that I'd arrange for it to be rectified, if the owner agreed to contribute my original fee.

But it has to be stressed just how careful I am, and that I never go for 100% correction, but rather the best compromise between final appearance and risk (IMO) - this is something else the owner is always made aware of.
 
I kid you not, on a Bentley that could leave you 1500 quid exposed easily, im not changing sides here, but if you are willing to have that exposure, get the insurance.

Accidents do happen, phone rings you turn round to shout to the beloved to answer and wooooops... its a strike! :D
 
I think you're both missing the point - I've stated that I would arrange the repair if the damage was caused by my own mistake, I have a very good arrangement with a very competent bodyshop. If someone isn't happy with that, they are welcome to walk away and not employ my services. This is only if its my fault, don't forget. Like I've stated, if the lacquer was thin enough to strike through, it was going to anyway, as I do not use any kind of particularly heavy cut - if this happens, I will offer to finish the job and there will be no charge - as a goodwill jesture.

You seem to imply that I have an obligation to fix it Fox - if the customer wants this, they can go and pay three times as much, or more (plus ferry travel and petrol) for a professional to do it.
 
I think you're both missing the point - I've stated that I would arrange the repair if the damage was caused by my own mistake, I have a very good arrangement with a very competent bodyshop. If someone isn't happy with that, they are welcome to walk away and not employ my services. This is only if its my fault, don't forget. Like I've stated, if the lacquer was thin enough to strike through, it was going to anyway, as I do not use any kind of particularly heavy cut - if this happens, I will offer to finish the job and there will be no charge - as a goodwill jesture.

You seem to imply that I have an obligation to fix it Fox - if the customer wants this, they can go and pay three times as much, or more (plus ferry travel and petrol) for a professional to do it.

Dont take this wrong, that wont wash as a business model.

You need to either do this as a mates rates thing or properly, not a bit of both.
 
Mike has just inadvertently summed up my entire point I think. If you take money from someone to complete a job you are responsible for any damage. If you don't like this, don't do it.
 
[TW]Fox;17134497 said:
Mike has just inadvertently summed up my entire point I think. If you take money from someone to complete a job you are responsible for any damage. If you don't like this, don't do it.

I can still see a distinction.

If someone wants him to do a job at their own risk for mates rates then thats all good.

What you cant do is start putting half baked assurances in, because the chances are 1 Mike will come unstuck money wise, and 2 the customer and driver of a 50k car is not going to want Mikes mate fixing it.

So if Mike is going to turn it into enough of a business to have an arrangement with a sprayer, he should get the super sonic paint gauge that tells laquer thickness and a bit of insurance.

Or tell the customer ******, you got it cheap its down to you :D

All that "il finish the job as a goodwill gesture" will result in him getting a slap off someone :)
 
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It's not really mates rates if you are referring to people as customers and offering to do peoples cars off the internet. It might still be more a hobby than a business but the fact he takes money from people means if he damages it, he fixes it!
 
[TW]Fox;17134551 said:
It's not really mates rates if you are referring to people as customers and offering to do peoples cars off the internet. It might still be more a hobby than a business but the fact he takes money from people means if he damages it, he fixes it!

Murky area there, i still think if he says to me Mark il wax your car for 100 (pure example) but if my pot of wax falls on ya seat im not paying to have it cleaned, if i take the job its down to me.

See the difference there?

Thats different to Mark il wax your car for 100 quid but dont worry if my wax falls on your seat my mate dry cleans Bentley seats. (Hence implying security)

One is down to me to take the risk and one is a load of ******.
 
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You break it, you fix it. That's how it is if you ask me. A while ago I was colour sanding a couple of newly painted panels for a mate, for nothing. During buffing I tore a clean 2 inches of paint off the edge of a panel. I didn't hesitate to offer to pay for the repair, after all I was completely to blame.
I've buffed loads of stuff before, nothing like that had ever happened. Paint must have had poor adhesion or something, anyway it goes to show that **** happens.
 
You break it, you fix it. That's how it is if you ask me. A while ago I was colour sanding a couple of newly painted panels for a mate, for nothing. During buffing I tore a clean 2 inches of paint off the edge of a panel. I didn't hesitate to offer to pay for the repair, after all I was completely to blame.
I've buffed loads of stuff before, nothing like that had ever happened. Paint must have had poor adhesion or something, anyway it goes to show that **** happens.

Yes it does but in that situation i wouldnt let you pay if i was the mate, and im sure im not alone in saying that.

I'd just like to add that im not some latter day saint/charity where business and money is concerned, but i do think if you get a job free or cheap and you are aware of the risks, suck it up.

BUT people shouldnt advertise half baked back up plans, if you are deep enough in to start offering those, buy the insurance and proper tools.
 
Mark, I see what you're saying - my primary responsibility during any event would always be none - any person that uses my "services" are essentially paying a mate to do it, and that is why (in your example) they are paying £100 and not £250. Anything else I'm personally willing to do is 'above and beyond' as far as I'm concerned, and in the event of a problem they can take my offer or leave it. But the important bit here, I feel, is that I'm 100% transparent about this.

My arrangement with a bodyshop is a personal one that I've held for years, not one that has come about because of the recent jobs I've been doing.

I think the "you're charging for it, so you fix it" approach is far too idealistic. Like I've said before, if you want the protection then you go to a professional - its that simple, and if someone is unhappy with my terms, they are welcome to do so - I won't get upset, angry or even try to dissuade them from doing so.

For the record, I've bought a basic PTG anyway, so I can at least give "facts" with my terms where correction is involved.
 
[TW]Fox;17133908 said:
Not sure I can agree that a ptg is largely pointless?
Because they're not.
Irregardless of not giving you individual levels of the layers, what it does is give you a fighting chance of doing the job properly and safely.

1. It highlights thinspots on panels. Paint is measured in microns, so say a bonnet gives you an average of 200um overall, bar the right hand leading edge where you have 70um readings. Straight away you know that if you had compounded that area, as you were planning to do to the rest of the bonnet, you would have struck through (removed the clearcoat, respray required). You would have never known this without a simple PTG.

2. It can help tell you if a panel has been resprayed. Not always, but more often than not, that panel will have higher readings than the factory levels. This is handy when working with german paint because by the time you have worked out the best pad/polish for initial removal, it's pretty aggressive. The resprayed panel info allows you to not assume the material will take kindly to a wool pad and heavy compound.

3. It tells you how much material you have removed. Again, forget the clearcoat for a moment. The panel has an average of 200um. You run a pad/polish combo that doesn't correct. You take a reading...you've knocked 5um off. This tells you straight away you are dealing with something soft. Handy to know. Better, if you are a good detailer, you will want to leave some life in the paint, not correct it to the nth degree and leave the clearcoat ridiculously thin. If you have to remove 40% of the overall thickness to correct the car, you are doing something wrong, the material is too thin already, the imperfections are too deep etc. Without a PTG, how much have you removed? You don't actually know. The customer has no idea what you have left him with. The gauge, if nothing else, allows an educated guess.

Got that Aston looking great, customer over the moon, you with money in your pocket. An honest, professional detailer will tell you what he's taken off and what he believes is left. The new guy can't do that, he doesn't know himself exactly what's left. He didn't know what he had to start with.

The arguement that a PTG does not give you simply the most important measure, the clearcoat thickness is valid. But an educated guess can be made and experience and common sense with the gauge and plenty of cars starts to make things a lot clearer.

The guys that are £2k and up for a full correction use a PTG. Not multi-level, but single reads. £400 gauge is great, a £150 gauge...if nothing else, it will help you avoid point 1.
You can tell me I'm talking out of my arse, but one of the most cited guides to rotary use was written by DaveKG. Dave knows all about strikethrough, he wouldn't dream of working on a clients car without a simple PTG, simply for the fact it has saved his bacon on more than one occasion.

I think it's time to make a distinction in this thread. A professional is somebody who gets paid to do a job, in this case, on clients cars. If you are a pro, you should have a PTG. The majority do (and single reads at that), for obvious reasons they consider it an essential tool. Like insurance.

This is only if its my fault, don't forget. Like I've stated, if the lacquer was thin enough to strike through, it was going to anyway, as I do not use any kind of particularly heavy cut - if this happens, I will offer to finish the job and there will be no charge - as a goodwill jesture.

That bit in bold, that's not good.
 
How much is insurance for all this, has anyone actually checked?

You have a fab market waiting to be tapped on the IOW. You could do boats too.

I've not looked into it, no. I also have little interest in doing this professionally - so far, everyone I've done, or have expressed an interest in me doing it have been people I know, most considered friends.

Fett, I understand completely what you are saying, and I do agree - I just think that the way the PTG was being pegged on here (almost like an insurance policy its self) was wrong. It can go both ways, imagine a scenario;

You're working on a 20 year old car that has had a respray (unknown to yourself) - readings of 250 across the car lead you to believe that there is plenty of clearcoat to play with, but in reality this car has been polished badly every few years for the last 10. The car started with a reading of say 300 across the board, and 50 has been removed over the last 10 years. If the clear coat was only ever 60 to begin with, you're likely to be in trouble if the confidence provided by the reading leads you to believe that you can go heavy on a couple of nasty scratches.
 
Absolutely on the PTG, it's not a fail safe device. 90% of the time it will serve you well. The other 10%, that's why you buy insurance. I wrote most of that because you initially labelled it as "mostly useless".

How much is insurance for all this, has anyone actually checked?

You have a fab market waiting to be tapped on the IOW. You could do boats too.

£450ish it seems. Theres a whole insurance sub-forum on DW. Bugger all if you are working on a high end car.

Mates rates, that's where I use a friend who does a job where I get all the benefits of using him as a professional, like any other customer, but get a preferential rate.

Cut-price service because you have no insurance, reducing your already small overheads, is not the same thing.
 
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