Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Avenged7Fold]

Can i get an understanding of what people believe freedom of speech is?

It most certainly is not the freedom to say what you want, when you want, how you want to whomever you want, regardless of what the audiences around you want.

 

[RaohNS]

When have we ever had it? Freedom of speech has never been enshrined in UK law. The closest we've ever had is the Human Rights Act but that has many exceptions.

In fact, Britain has always had very draconian defamation laws. Blaming 'feminazis' just demonstrates your own prejudices.

True I know we don't have free speech on the street. Never have. Online is different.

Not really, online hate speech eg rape threats and "online misogyny" has been massive in feminism and has gained huge traction.

Its not a prejudice per say... A dislike of bs is probably more accurate. Its like looking for **** when its not there

 

[RaohNS]

Can i get an understanding of what people believe freedom of speech is?

It most certainly is not the freedom to say what you want, when you want, how you want to whomever you want, regardless of what the audiences around you want.

That only exists in the US.

Here we mean we have right to an opinion that meets socially accepted protocols and is demarcated by laws of subjective offence levels.

 

[Tefal]

So what if they are elected? If they go into full nutter phase(that's the current direction) they lose their voting rights and everyone willingly signed up to this rule.

But they can't.

Because Hungary publicly daid they would block any wuch vote and that vote has to be unanimous.

So what now?

 

[Tunney]

True I know we don't have free speech on the street. Never have. Online is different.

The law doesn't differentiate between the two in any significant way. People have been prosecuted for what they've written on Twitter just as they've been prosecuted of things they've said in the street.

 

[Zethor]

I'm sorry... You're saying democracy doesn't matter and that the will of the people mean severe sanction? Just so we're clear on that?

Everyone signed up to it? Oh so because of that the people are now trapped. Glad we have that crystal clear right there. That is called authoritarianism folks. You can dress it any way you want but the monster underneath still has its horns.

Are you even aware of what's happening in Poland? Since when is ignoring the rulings of the Constitutional Court, the 'will of the people'? A democracy is not the tyranny of the majority, you can't justify with votes trampling over the rule of the law .

 

[RaohNS]

True enough but me saying something like all gays should be shot out a cannon on the net its far less likely to result in punitive action. However saying it in the street or in front of an employer is going to = ello ello ello

*to plods watching I don't mean the above or think homosexuals should be shot from a cannon I was using it as an example #snooperscharter #ballsinavice

 

[RaohNS]

Are you even aware of what's happening in Poland? Since when is ignoring the rulings of the Constitutional Court, the 'will of the people'? A democracy is not the tyranny of the majority, you can't justify with votes trampling over the rule of the law .

Why not? The EU manages it perfectly well. Same argument you had just here the EU is under the weight.

Its laughable really. Laws created to protect yourselves are then protested and overturned by peoples choices.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

*to plods watching I don't mean the above or think homosexuals should be shot from a cannon I was using it as an example #snooperscharter #ballsinavice

It is a good thing you didnt mean it, the guys who write the magazine: BallsInAVice, would have something to say about that!

 

[scorza]

When have we ever had it? Freedom of speech has never been enshrined in UK law. The closest we've ever had is the Human Rights Act but that has many exceptions.

In fact, Britain has always had very draconian defamation laws. Blaming 'feminazis' just demonstrates your own prejudices.

True there should be limits on free speech imo, but the EU's definition of "hate speech" is far too wide and could easily be misused in future. Britain's approach to this issue has been the usual hodge-podge of arcaic legal precedent, tolerance and fair-play - it has worked for the most part.

Today Germany voted to recognise the Armenian genocide by Turks (France and another EU nation also recognise this), the EU think denying that a genocide happened is hate speech, so is the British government committing hate speech by not offically recognising this as a genocide. That's just one of many issues.

 

[Zethor]

But they can't.

Because Hungary publicly daid they would block any wuch vote and that vote has to be unanimous.

So what now?

Hungary can't block anything.

 

[RaohNS]

True there should be limits on free speech imo, but the EU's definition of "hate speech" is far too wide and could easily be misused in future. Britain's approach to this issue has been the usual hodge-podge of arcaic legal precedent, tolerance and fair-play - it has worked for the most part.

Today Germany voted to recognise the Armenian genocide by Turks (France and another EU nation also recognise this), the EU think denying that a genocide happened is hate speech, so is the British government committing hate speech by not offically recognising this as a genocide. That's just one of many issues.

I said this in the last thread and a certain poster accused me of being a Jew hating Nazi who saluted a manakin dressed as Hitler every night and before attending my weekly far right meetings.

The point ultimately was from my side making a factual statement about a controversial topic can render you powerless when facing penalty. Tbh I don't care what the other side of that was.

 

[estebanrey]

can you explain why you say that immigration, in general, results in reduced labour costs? If it's because you feel that immigrants will work for less (in line with the minimum wage), then why won't a British person do the same job for the same money? If you argue that the minimum wage is not enough, then who controls that? Alternatively, everyone, if they so wish has options available to move themselves forward via training or education to advance with their career or into a different job.

For the same reason "free trade" lowers the price of goods. If you can buy X from all over the world/continent competition to win your business will mean you get a lower price compared to just being restricted to buying from the smaller selection of businesses in your host nation.

Likewise, being able to employee people from anywhere means you get more people interested and they compete for the job by asking for lower wages.

The concept that wages are driven by availability of people to do it is pretty common knowledge isn't it? It's why nurses get paid less than footballers or why a driver with an HGV license can demand more than one with a standard one.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

What about increased number of jobs created from foreign companies setting up here and other foreign investment so they gain the convenience of being in an EU country?

 

[RaohNS]

Business ethos is one of the big problems though. I remember years back on these forums. Business exists only to make profit.

If a business can cut corners it will, it is can profit even more by doing the unthinkable it will. I read about a place in London where all staff because of the "recession" took a big pay cut, I think it was from £45k down to £28k as work had severely waned and the boss basically said if you cannot all agree on dropping wage then its compulsory redundancies for a few people. Naturally they went with the fair and dignified option to have this pay cut. After 3yrs business was booming, busier than ever. Still on £28k and boss wasn't budging.

Think I told this sorry on here many moons ago, a gym mate used to work at a jam making factory. Used to get good bonuses every few months or so and a yearly portion of profit (very good money tempted say a couple of grand). Anyway boss did away with yearly bonus. Gave two cakes with the number 11 on them. One for day shift one for night. The 11 was for the 11million (biggest year they'd had) the company had made.

He left not too long after.

 

[estebanrey]

What about increased number of jobs created from foreign companies setting up here and other foreign investment so they gain the convenience of being in an EU country?

Do we know how many companies have invested here purely because of our EU membership or where not being in the EU would have been a red line that saw them look else where otherwise?

 

[Randomface74]

 

[estebanrey]

Business ethos is one of the big problems though. I remember years back on these forums. Business exists only to make profit.

If a business can cut corners it will, it is can profit even more by doing the unthinkable it will. I read about a place in London where all staff because of the "recession" took a big pay cut, I think it was from £45k down to £28k as work had severely waned and the boss basically said if you cannot all agree on dropping wage then its compulsory redundancies for a few people. Naturally they went with the fair and dignified option to have this pay cut. After 3yrs business was booming, busier than ever. Still on £28k and boss wasn't budging.

Think I told this sorry on here many moons ago, a gym mate used to work at a jam making factory. Used to get good bonuses every few months or so and a yearly portion of profit (very good money tempted say a couple of grand). Anyway boss did away with yearly bonus. Gave two cakes with the number 11 on them. One for day shift one for night. The 11 was for the 11million (biggest year they'd had) the company had made.

He left not too long after.

Of course, this is why calling the mega-rich "job creators" is so ridiculous.

Businesses do not exist to employee people and only do so if the input from that employee results in profit after paying their wages. Businesses create jobs out of necessity, not because of some moral compass.

 

[RaohNS]

The job creators are customers or tax payers. That's pretty much it really.

My company got bought out recently. The director got massive sums I'm certain but he had something in it for the staff too which I wont grumble at as the total payments I will receive amount to just shy of 2months salary. People who had been here longer got money.

Having said that the money ultimately we did get is a drop compared to what some get for bonuses. The rich get richer I suppose and truth be told the jobs they have are are usually simpler. Former colleague left here doing the job of some of the directors here and says its easy and that anyone with a brain could do it

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Do we know how many companies have invested here purely because of our EU membership or where not being in the EU would have been a red line that saw them look else where otherwise?

Not off the top of my head but i am sure there is a large list of out there with companies who have their European headquarters based in the UK. Within 1km of me there is the Samsung EU headquarters.

Ireland will certainly look more attractive if we leave, regardless of trade deals the UK make, since they have free trade with the EU and the UK.

I am not saying it makes up for x cost or y cost, just that nothing definitive can be said in terms of employment.