Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 400 43.3%

  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 523 56.7%
  • Total voters
    923
  • Poll closed .
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scorza said:
We could have a skill point system if we wanted one and left the EU. At the moment we can't have one even if we did want one.
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I think you and others have missed the nuance of Professor Stephen Hawking's letter.

This isn't about allowing young and talented EU scientists to work in the UK, it's about attracting them. The more barriers you put up to entry, the less likely it is they'll come.
 
Skunkworks said:
Damn, I really wanted to live and work in the UK, but now I have to fill in a form! Oh well, Romania it is.
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Cute.

Firstly, the visa process isn't "filling in a form"; it's a bit more difficult than that.
Secondly, if you have any dependants or a partner who also wants to work it's another level of complexity.
Thirdly, we're not competing with Romania for scientists, we're competing with Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc. These are rich countries which invest well in the sciences.
 
Even if they still are attracted to come to the UK, students without wealthy economic backgrounds simply will no longer be able to afford it. Most of those students stay on to do research here as well, as we lead the world in many fields. Although not for long if we go out.

Why go study and research in the UK if it costs a ton more and Germany/France is easier and cheaper.
 
Mr Jack said:
You're not listening. I didn't say it would prevent it, I said it would make it more difficult and that those barriers are significant to the point that in some, perhaps many, cases it won't be worth the hassle and thus de facto stop it. Anecdotes about a friend who did it in the US aren't much of an answer.

Without the crystal ball to know what the post-Brexit arrangements might be you can't say exactly how large those barriers will be. What is clear is that the UK has a lot more successful collaborations with the EU than it does with the US. That can, at least in part, be attributed to the nurturing effect of the EU's science funding and free movement within the EU.
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What barriers? In the case of my friend he only had to fill in the ESTA visa waiver form online and claim the cost back from his company on expenses. You're severely underestimating the attraction of the UK if you think that will de facto stop people coming here to do business.

Why is it OK for you to use anecdotes about working in Denmark but not for me to use an anecdote to point out that this sort of business goes on in countries where we don't have free movement?

Agreed that we can't know exactly what the post-Brexit arrangements will be at this time. I don't think that's a good enough reason for voting to stay in the EU though - equally we don't know what the EU will look like in five years time either.
 
Avenged7Fold said:
Even if they still are attracted to come to the UK, students without wealthy economic backgrounds simply will no longer be able to afford it. Most of those students stay on to do research here as well, as we lead the world in many fields. Although not for long if we go out.

Why go study and research in the UK if it costs a ton more and Germany/France is easier and cheaper.
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...and both example countries are putting more finance into research :)
scorza said:
We could have a skill point system if we wanted one and left the EU. At the moment we can't have one even if we did want one.
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Why not? Why couldn't we have a skill system that only applies to non-EU immigrants?
 
Gilly said:
Why not? Why couldn't we have a skill system that only applies to non-EU immigrants?
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It doesn't really work unless you implement it holistically. It's more complex to assign points to skills the more volatile your labour force is. Whatever we have if we vote to Leave, it has to simple, sustainable, fair and transparent.
 
scorza said:
It doesn't really work unless you implement it holistically. It's more complex to assign points to skills the more volatile your labour force is. Whatever we have if we vote to Leave, it has to simple, sustainable, fair and transparent.
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If we leave, yes, but given that we have freedom of movement for EU nationals, everyone that we managed via immigration would have to go through the skills system, no?
 
http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...enefits-and-free-healthcare-to-lure-migrants/

A popular Polish language newspaper has created a twenty-page guide on making the most of the UK’s benefit system, described it as the “best developed” welfare state in the world.

It’s illustrated with an image of a British man handing a money tree to Polish women, and features sections on every type of welfare available in the UK.

It was produced by The Polish Express newspaper, which is based in the UK and has a 75,000 weekly circulation.
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British-based Polish paper prints something intentionally inflammatory in order to generate publicity. Who says that EU migrants aren't integrating with British culture? :p
 
scorza said:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...enefits-and-free-healthcare-to-lure-migrants/
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What's wrong with that? Loads of sites, including the government's own benefits sites, give information on what benefits you're entitled to and how to claim them. Why shouldn't a Polish newspaper give helpful advice to the Polish population on what they're entitled to claim and how to claim it? Polish workers in the UK have every right to know what their rights in the UK are.

It's also "interesting" how the text shown in the supposed benefits homepage doesn't show up in any searches of the Poland Express website and I can find no sign of any 'benefits' tag on any of their posts.
 
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Mr Jack said:
Cute.

Firstly, the visa process isn't "filling in a form"; it's a bit more difficult than that.
Secondly, if you have any dependants or a partner who also wants to work it's another level of complexity.
Thirdly, we're not competing with Romania for scientists, we're competing with Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, etc. These are rich countries which invest well in the sciences.
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For short business trips to the US it is pretty much filling in a form (90 days). I don't see why the EU would do any different.

It seems a little scaremongering to say it will make working in the UK really difficult when it isn't that hard currently.
 
scorza said:
What barriers? In the case of my friend he only had to fill in the ESTA visa waiver form online and claim the cost back from his company on expenses. You're severely underestimating the attraction of the UK if you think that will de facto stop people coming here to do business.

Why is it OK for you to use anecdotes about working in Denmark but not for me to use an anecdote to point out that this sort of business goes on in countries where we don't have free movement?

Agreed that we can't know exactly what the post-Brexit arrangements will be at this time. I don't think that's a good enough reason for voting to stay in the EU though - equally we don't know what the EU will look like in five years time either.
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I think you'll find if he was working over there for 6 weeks then he may well have not been doing so fully legally. The tourist visa would only allow him to attend meetings and that sort of thing officially. Plenty of people lie on their forms though (I've done it more than once in a couple of countries...), doesn't mean it's on a par with legally working somewhere short term as part of the EU freedoms.
 
So here we are 14 pages in and the out folk are apparently only really concerned about immigrants both eu and non eu and the giving of benefits to said immigrants or other people, pretty sad.
 
thep02 said:
So here we are 14 pages in and the out folk are apparently only really concerned about immigrants both eu and non eu and the giving of benefits to said immigrants or other people, pretty sad.
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You've missed quite a lot of this thread in that case. Whilst immigration is a prominent issue because we should be able to pick and choose who we bring in to focus on needed skills. Unfortunately we are attracting a lot of low skilled workers and also people that don't work. There are a lot of homeless immigrants that have come here for the wrong reasons.

However there are a lot of issues with EU laws that prevent things such as subsidisation of industry. This has caused our manufacturing sector to recently suffer badly. The government can't step in to help industry and must helplessly watch as the company sinks like the titanic. This was recently the case for the Redcar steel plant.

An additional issue with over regulation is that it has stifled innovation. It is known as the European paradox.
 
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