Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 522 41.6%

  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 733 58.4%
  • Total voters
    1,255
  • Poll closed .
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Tunney said:
This forum's predictions for the London mayoral vote were way off though.
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To be fair, I bet a lot of people who don't live in London voted in that poll. When it comes to national issues, this forum tends to be relatively accurate, with a slight bias towards the political right.
 
Considering the leave side are the ones who need to be convincing us as they are the side for change I am getting pushed the stay more and more. The BBC arrival today where it is said there would be 5m more people from Europe and NHS A&E would increase by 57% are they sailing everyone who comes is going to be accident prone.
 
I mentioned it ages ago, but in my social groups, this really is a hearts vs minds things.

Is true sovereignty really worth the paper it's written on? Yes / no
If the answer to the first question is yes, is the financial uncertainty in the short term with it? Yes / no

I know intelligent people across all 3 positions.

There are plenty of awful reasons to vote leave, including the awful reasoning and scaremongering of politicians, which is total lululul. Just because someone else has an awful sense of reasoning that doesn't support the contrary argument.

Believing in the nonsense is also a bad reason to vote stay!
 
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Rilot said:
And you would be completely wrong.

I am firmly in the Remain camp but that doesn't mean that I can't see merit in Leave's arguments.
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Zethor and a lot of the remainers have a habit of just laying out insults or slurs in every second post so just ignore them (except when making valid points at least).

I currently feel we'd better off remaining but I think I am going to vote out anyway. Reason being that regardless of what I feel I know the true benefit of remaining is merely the economic and political benefits. The political benefits are neither here nor there for me as I feel some parts are good and some parts are terrible (like policy making taking 22 months instead of america's 50 or so states taking 9 months or other failed EU policies like freedom of movement http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...spects-letting-walk-Britain-unchallenged.html ) so it leads to the economic argument. Let's be honest, as others clearly point out there are mistakes with projections for a single year or even for 4 or 5 years so trusting the governments projections for 15 years in the future when we've already seen they're not on form and producing misleading statistics like the £4,300 worse off a year seems ludicrous as well. I feel we stand to lose a little economically but I've always been of the argument that we have hidden costs from migration and being in the EU anyway and that we won't lose as much as we think. Add to this that we've had false predictions before ala Norway in the video you quoted and also when we was voting to adopt the euro currency or not then we clearly have evidence that economic projections aren't as straightforward as we think.

What I think I know I simply don't. Meaning the economic argument is in the air as far as I'm concerned and it's more a political argument where the EU is slow to act, overly liberal for my taste (as seen in the link I've posted showing how they protect even criminals too much), they're wasteful (flying to Strasbourg every week, the lost amount on fraud being 10x higher than UK government, 0.2% compared to 0.02%, pouring money ino making other countries able to join the EU etc) and I simply cannot agree with there idea of taking away sovereignity on many issues I believe they should have no say on. It strikes me that they to me have always felt undemocratic and I've not denounced there democratic processes but rather how open, clear and in the public eye it is. Democracy in the shadows or out of common public knowledge (and in my eyes democracy piled ontop of democracy ontop of democracy) is just not representative of local issues or as clear and transparent as a quality democracy has to be. To round this back to your point, I am actually somewhat pro EU and remain a sceptic still and I found that video moderately helpful as well, Zethor and the gang or regularly overly vocal won't like it but a lot of this argument isn't just number crunching and questioning if we'll cash in. I watched a lot of the videos datalol put up (here again for reference and I recommend people watch them if they have time http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...zWNBk9/the-big-questions-on-the-eu-referendum ) Along with that EU debate that had daniel hannan in. One thing I feel is that the people arguing for the EU seem to have the economic argument but then little else. It seems to lose most arguments in my view on every other issue (security, immigration and others) and that most arguments rely on over exaggerating what the EU actually does and misleading double speak to suggest we'd leave Europe or whatnot.

I'm also not a fan of bullying (like junckers warnings) and political trickery (like cameron's lies and deceipt in going for brexit campaigning before the referendum was even resolved) so I'm feeling like the economic argument slips to the unknown, the political argument favours brexit for me as I want more local and quicker decision making than forced policies from outside and then the political tricks lead me to believe (as said in the video) they simply have such self interest that they campaign and misinform us just to try and win. Voting out is the only way to show we reject sovereignity stealing, migration being out of control (might not get rid of it but the voices would be heard and progress could be made longer term) etc. I'm going to vote against it's failures because it's pro's are very much overstated regularly and I don't want to approve that political environment despite recognising overall it is a good system for many things. It could be the way forward in some issues but it's a step back in others too.
 
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Mr Jack said:
Let us suppose that immigration has the mild negative effect on the wages of the bottom quintile as you suggest, let us also suppose that the overall effect is positive on wages and positive on economic growth - as also suggested by the research you cite. Then I put it to you that the option of continued migration combined with policies to improve the wages and conditions of the low paid will have a better net outcome for the country and for the poorly paid, than abandoning the overall positive effects of immigration in order to prevent a negative pressure on the lowest quintile.

And, as I pointed out above, the overall negative impact of Brexit on wages and the economy is likely to have a greater negative effect on the wages and employment of the poorly paid than the mild negative effect suggested by some research anyway. So leaving the EU to reduce immigration is a poster child for "medicine worse than the disease".
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How big in terms of popualtion is the bottom quartile of earners versus the top quartile.
 
So you're hoping that people that will get affected the most by the result don't take this opportunity to decide on their future?
 
itchy said:
Funders of the pro eu campaign are....

Goldman sachs
Jp morgan
Limited
CitiGroup
Morgan Stanley.. etc

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...n-union-campaign-is-part-funded-by-goldman-s/

If you know anything that should set the alarm bells off for GTF out.
I dunno I digress, I suppose the time of spending 9 years turning every stone on the planet over has turned me into a tinfoil hat. :p
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So you think we should always do the opposite of what London's financial industry wants?

Half of the money given to Remain £3.75m came from Lord Sainsbury.

Do we think a guy who has donated £1bn to charity doesn't care about the wellbeing of the UK?

More than half of this sum came from Lord Sainsbury of Turville, the Labour peer, who donated more than £3.7million.
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The campaign to keep Britain in Europe is being part-funded with hundreds of thousands of pounds foreign companies and some of America’s biggest banks, it has emerged.

Figures from the Electoral Commission show that Citigroup and Morgan Stanley donated £250,000 each to the official Britain Stronger in Europe group ahead of the June 23 referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union.

Two other US banks – Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan – donated £500,000 each to the Britain Stronger in Europe campaign before February when donations had to be declared.

Other donations came from France’s Airbus and Eurostar, which gave £7,500 each.
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The other thing the Telegraph conveniently ignores is where the Leave donors made their money. All the remain donors are given sentences and descriptions trying to drive a negative opinion to it's readers.

Other key donors for the Remain campaign included £750,000 from David Harding, a hedge fund manager and £500,000 from Lloyd Dorfman, the founder of Travelex.

In the quit camp, Leave.EU received £3.2 million from single donor Peter Hargreaves, as well as three loans worth £6million from Ukip supporter Arron Banks.
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One sentence on leave donations! No scrutiny whatsover even though they raised twice the money of the remain campaign.
 
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Moses said:
A more important one is would there be any meaningful change re: our sovereignty if we stay or leave?
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Exactly - that's was the intended emphasis of my first question. Freedom for the people, or freedom for the megacorps to dump their derp on all, without recourse?

I personally don't think it is worth it. The EU is totally pro people, whilst our own governments are more pro business. They balance each other out nicely. That's not to say that the political aspect of the EU couldn't be more democratic!
 
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muon said:
So you think we should always do the opposite of what London's financial industry wants?

Half of the money given to Remain £3.75m came from Lord Sainsbury.

Do we think a guy who has donated £1bn to charity doesn't care about the wellbeing of the UK?

The other thing the Telegraph conveniently ignores is where the Leave donors made their money.
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You really think people with money give a **** about me or you! :rolleyes:

Ooh £1 billion to charity, I suppose you will love bill gates and all other so called philanthropists who help us poor people out. Pmsl. :D

Comedy gold that is for sure. :p
 
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