Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)
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Caporegime
Two interesting side points jump out from that analysis:
1. If we leave the EU it will be down to the votes of the old. The young, who will actually be most affected by the vote, are in favour of staying in the EU.
2. The Tory voters are out of sync with their current leadership in favouring a Brexit.
Soldato
I don't agree with this at all - see here (state of manufacturing) and here (expansion of manufacturing since the millennium) for example. The UK is crying out for more engineers and STEM graduates - this isn't just to fill Barclays with more quants analysts!
Don't we more easily get those needed engineers and STEM graduates by being able to easily recruit people from Europe?
Soldato
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1) No one under the age of 58 has ever had the chance to vote directly on EEC, EC or EU membership or treaties. Now withuot statistical analysis but looking at a distribution curve I reckon that's only 30% of the voting population. So arguing in favour of the young when most of the middle aged equally have never had a choice either is a little off.
2)This sounds like an old communist joke "the people have lost the confidence of the Government".
I would suggest the Conservative leadership needs to better reflect the millions of Conservative voters or they will no doubt cease to be the Conservative leadership. But I do accept it is a leadership function to persuade people of what you think is the right course.
Man of Honour
If other countries who also need the skills don't have these hurdles, cost and potential delays, then I'm pretty sure some people would be put off. I don't think anyone knows if that would be a significant number though, although I think it has the potential to be significant.
exactly - even just a crude rule of Bachelors degree = instant visa could allow the various french bankers etc.. in with no fuss while barring the unskilled Romanians
that depends largely on how much of a faff the visa system would be
even with a visa system designed by say the morons running student finance you'd still find that Polish builders, Irish nurses, French bankers still find it worthwhile to move here
Soldato
Having tough immigration laws doesn't stop the influx of immigrants it just means the ones that do come work illegally instead of legally.
I'll leave you guys to work out if the cost of setting up and maintaining a tough immigration system, and the loss of revenue from people working illegally outweighs the benefits or not.
I'll leave you guys to work out if the cost of setting up and maintaining a tough immigration system, and the loss of revenue from people working illegally outweighs the benefits or not.
Caporegime
What stops an influx of immigrants is effective border control - the core EU nations decided to scrap theirs and as a result we have the chaos we're experiencing now. Face it, the EU's response to the migrant crisis has been a shambles - completely ineffective. Each member state has basically had a policy of beggar-thy-neighbour, helping the migrants to move on to the next country which will bear the costs and not them. The EU had a massive opportunity to show how it can be an effective government by stepping in and imposing a bit of law and order on the situation, they utterly fluffed it. Now we have the destination member states putting up their border controls again so all the other transit states are also putting up fences along their borders. Unfortunately this is beggaring the states where the migrants arrive in the EU - Greece especially so. Greece is already bankrupt and now faces additional costs associated with hosting a load of unwelcome migrants - what exactly is the EU doing to help Greece here? Because I really fear for Greece at the moment, if they don't get the support they need then they could end up becoming a failed state - what will that say about the government in Brussels if they allow that to happen?
The EU is not worthy of governing Europe, it is corrupt, bureaucratic and incapable, I do not wish my country to be governed by them.
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Suspended
Funny thing with the "outers" I know is that immigration isn't even being mentioned. Seems more the erosion of democracy than anything else. Until exemption from being part of a superstate is carved in stone, I'm not budging, either.
That's because it's a non-issue to anyone with half an ounce of sense. Immigration will always exist, we just need to find a way to manage it appropriately. In and of itself, it's no reason to leave the EU.
Soldato
The way I see it we have a simple choice:
1. Stay in the EU with a known set of likes dislikes and finances
2. Leave the EU to a total unknown, nobody can tell us anything about what life will be like afterwards except 'it will be better because of national sovereignty'
Which seems like a pretty weak basis for such an important decision so I don't see how anyone can vote for anything other than the status quo.
1. Stay in the EU with a known set of likes dislikes and finances
2. Leave the EU to a total unknown, nobody can tell us anything about what life will be like afterwards except 'it will be better because of national sovereignty'
Which seems like a pretty weak basis for such an important decision so I don't see how anyone can vote for anything other than the status quo.
Caporegime
The status quo isn't an option - the truth is that we don't know what the EU is going to look like in 5, 10, 20 years time. "Ever closer union" is embedded into every EU treaty, despite what the thin gruel deal says. We know for example that the current unelected EU leaders want to set up a European Army to replace national armies, does anyone know when this is going to happen? Does anyone know what's in this secret TTIP deal that the EU is negotiating for Britain? No-one knows the future, so I wouldn't even try to think about that - this is purely about who you'd prefer governs us.
Suspended
FFS! How is it a 'total unknown'? It isn't at all. You do realise that until the 1970s there was no EU integration at all? It isn't unknown and people need to stop peddling the same ****. It's just wrong. The UK managed perfectly well before and we'll manage perfectly well without the EU if that's the road we go down.
Soldato
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If national soveriegnty is a weak reason to base a referendum on I'm really interested to know what a strong reason is.
Great! Bring on the United States of Europe
Great!
The sooner the better!
Moses does!
I think I'm decidedly a Remain voter
Hmm, I think you'll have to revisit your UK 60's & 70's history if you think we managed the country and economy during that period perfectly well
And the world is a totally different place now then it was 50 years ago, so it's not unreasonable to say it is an unkown about how things will pan out and if they will be better, worse or the same for us.
Caporegime
That's fine as long as people understand that by voting to stay in the EU, that's what they're going to get. If we vote to stay in the EU, then I'm 100% sure that there will never be another opportunity for Britain to quit the EU.
He might think he does, but he doesn't really. No-one outside the negotiators do as it's a classified document - ask yourself why?
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Soldato
I said this pages back but you was adamant that I was wrong.
Anyway. I've asked my MP how much or our tax money the IN group will spend. I think I have a right to know.
Nobody is really making it clear exactly what will be at risk if we leave the EU, I mean, we can still trade with any country we like...? The German car manufacturers for example aren't going to suddenly ignore a market of 60 million people plus...
As it stands I see a lot of money being ploughed into the EU, with limited benefit (admittedly I haven't read up on this in great detail).
The whole thing is a leap into the unknown, nobody seems to be able to accurately predict what's going to happen either way, just speculation.
I'd compare the situation to Norway, who are very happy outside of the EU and won't even consider joining, but they're oil rich and have a much smaller population than the UK. For them, joining would be foolish.
As it stands I see a lot of money being ploughed into the EU, with limited benefit (admittedly I haven't read up on this in great detail).
The whole thing is a leap into the unknown, nobody seems to be able to accurately predict what's going to happen either way, just speculation.
I'd compare the situation to Norway, who are very happy outside of the EU and won't even consider joining, but they're oil rich and have a much smaller population than the UK. For them, joining would be foolish.
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