Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[Efour]

Lol i thought of Joan Rivers for some reason ! but yes indeed!

 

[Uther]

Honestly even though I voted yes in the poll some time ago, I haven't completely made my mind up, and am still to be convinced either way. That won't happen by reading this thread though!
People like IDS coming out in favour of leaving fills me with some disquiet as to what the likes of him and a Tory government could get up to if they had free reign.

 

[deuse]

If that's so, why did we introduce a points based system for all the non-EU individuals? Why, if the visa system we had before (not unlike the American mess), was never reinstated by one of the most conservative Home Secretaries in years?

The UK still has half a system in place for none EU people. The EU law won't let us use the visa system on EU people.

If it's the best possible for Britain, that is, why not revert the Labour changes, and dry-run it on the same part of the migration system? You know, just to make sure it'd work today, before potentially facing a need to scale it up. I assume the evidence is 'out there' again.

Maybe because it is indeed a complex, archaic mess, costs a bob and doesn't meet our needs? Good luck trying to convince May and Osborne to spend money on those grounds.

It was a very simple system and worked. But this time round those who want to come here will have to pay.

Read that line again. It's re the red-tape and burden of hiring staff for the NHS... Free movement makes it easy; the new p.b.s. we have, and the old visa system, does not. If you expand either -- the NHS faces both higher hiring costs and more legal nonsense, whilst it's always one nudge away from a staffing crisis as is.

Sounds like you don't know the difference between a working visa and one for permanent residence.

 

[scorza]

Yeah everyone I knew when I was working opted out of that one...

It's like I said, the culture in the UK is one where people want to 'work hard and get on'. The working time directive wasn't wanted in Britain. I'm not saying people on the continent don't work hard - they do, but in my experience there's a certain je ne sais quoi that's lacking from their systems. I think this is why so many entrepreneurs from France come over here to start their businesses. I don't see any reason why that would change post-Brexit.

 

[Caged]

Hopefully when all the boomers are in the ground then this idea of working longer = getting more done will die, and we will start to see productivity increases.

 

[Efour]

Well hasn't the Uk (i know Sweden has) gone the whole Zero hour contract route?
Avoiding Holiday pay any kinds of sick pay, unknown working hours that give you almost zero ability to financially plan.

That's sick.. It might be lower skilled jobs but its a disgusting practice.
If leaving the EU would have anyway to outlaw those kinds of business practices even id vote for that.

 

[Mr Jack]

Was the UK in such a bad state before it joined the EU, that people think it will fall apart the second it leaves?

It wasn't in a great state although the change isn't much due to the EU. I don't think many on the In side think the UK will "fall apart"; I do think we'll be a lot worse off in the short term, and worse off in the long term .

 

[Uther]

Well hasn't the Uk (i know Sweden has) gone the whole Zero hour contract route?
Avoiding Holiday pay any kinds of sick pay, unknown working hours that give you almost zero ability to financially plan.

That's sick.. It might be lower skilled jobs but its a disgusting practice.
If leaving the EU would have anyway to outlaw those kinds of business practices even id vote for that.

My son is in his first job, with a zero hour contract.He has worked 40 hours a week on average ever since he got it six months ago, and today is working 18 hours. He does accrue holiday pay.
I'm not a fan of them myself, but it does seem to appeal to some people. I doubt very much that workers 'rights' would be strengthened by leaving the EU.

 

[kitch9]

I do worry that this is the kind of simple minded drivel that will lead people to believe an exit vote is for the best.

I just hope the opinion of the general public isn't reflected by the opinion of the exit crowd in here.

It's this kind of closed minded drivel of complete denial why entire communities are in turmoil.

Nimbyisms on this subject are rife.

The reason the far right is rising is because more and more people are witnessing either directly or indirectly the negative side of immigration and when it's bad it ain't pretty.

When people say that immigration is providing a net benefit to the economy I say maybe it is but how much is that benefit getting held back by the bad side of it.

 

[Hades]

Yeah everyone I knew when I was working opted out of that one...

Yup. Wveryone I know in my industry were expected to opt out and have done so.

 

[Narj]

Yup. Wveryone I know in my industry were expected to opt out and have done so.

I like overtime so that's out the window for me too, thanks!

 

[datalol-jack]

The UK still has half a system in place for none EU people. The EU law won't let us use the visa system on EU people.

That wasn't the question: Why didn't May revert to the 'very simple system' that 'worked' for the non-EU people to test it? The Tories have had the control of the Home Office for over five years to date. Why continue with the points based system from Labour, which is nothing like the American visa system you bang on about? It's more Aussie if anything. There's nothing from the EU stopping her going ahead on this count. She could trial anything she wants.

Anyhow, to reiterate and summarise:

• Your American dream would require scrapping a working system, and rolling out a new visa regime for all immigration post-Brexit, or at least rewriting the old rules to fit today's market
• Expanding the PBS we have already post-Brexit would still require more money up-front from the government; running this larger PBS may or may not be offset over the years by the higher processing fees and greater business contributions (or more government spending)

Which is it for you? Both have administrative and practical issues you wish to ignore.

It was a very simple system and worked. But this time round those who want to come here will have to pay.

According to your anecdotal nostalgia? You still haven't said at what levels you envisage them paying? Further, why should they pay extra anyway, if it's our businesses, research centres and institutions that need their skills? Why add extra costs and red-tape on everyone? What would it do to the affordability of the sponsorship process, with a bigger system to pay for? What would it achieve?

Sounds like you don't know the difference between a working visa and one for permanent residence.

Here's what the system that's likely to get expanded post-Brexit is going to keep doing:
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7337/CBP-7337.pdf -- linked sources in the document take you to the concerns raised by the stakeholders

It's not great. One point, temporarily reversed in the case of nurses for now, is related to settlement. The other two apply to everyone.

Now if the system causes this much chaos at lower volumes, needs interventions from several institutions and at least two government departments to patch it up to meet real needs in-flight -- what would it do in full swing, should it be applied to all migrants? Should we also get rid of the PBS in favour of the antique visa regime we had, it'd cause an even greater bureaucratic log-jam.

In fact, doing something like this to cut numbers and meet all the shortages may become a mutually exclusive process, and an embarrassing, shambolic mess. Particularly if it's rushed in at the eleventh hour as our 2-year transitional period for negotiations comes to a close.

Thanks but no thanks, deuse.

 

[easyrider]

Could someone come up with say five bullets each for staying in and exiting please?

 

[datalol-jack]

Could someone come up with say five bullets each for staying in and exiting please?

I'll try. But after pages of this thread, and 4 months minus a week to go, this will still be a very individual list for everyone.

Remain

• Full access to the common market: goods, services and labour
• Shared security arrangements and distributed risk in an increasingly uncertain world
• Access to the EU's regional development and research funds
• Negotiating and trading as a powerful bloc
• Sensible European law: consumers rights, worker protections, privacy, etc

Leave

• Saving £13-16 billion a year
• Greater flexibility in approaching foreign trade partners directly and the ability to sign free trade treaties ourselves
• Potentially only marginally losing out on European trade (read initial hit, then pretty much carry on)
• Depending on our level of association with the EU post-Brexit, potential ability to take full control and responsibility over all immigration and asylum arrangements
• Ability to review all the laws from our EU years: keep, ditch or rewrite them as we see fit; hence focussing on domestic matters and withdrawing from the European project, whatever shape it may take afterwards

 

[Efour]

How would those bullet points effect the man on the street ?

 

[Glaucus]

How would those bullet points effect the man on the street ?

It's impossible to tell.
However chances are man in the street would be far worse with an exit.
Europe gives us so many workers, consumers, environmental laws, that uk governments just aren't interested in without being forced.
And that's before you look at the likely hit to the economy and what happens with Scotland etc.

 

[datalol-jack]

How would those bullet points effect the man on the street ?

It's impossible to tell.
However chances are man in the street would be far worse with an exit.
Europe gives us so many workers, consumers, environmental laws, that uk governments just aren't interested in without being forced.
And that's before you look at the likely hit to the economy and what happens with Scotland etc.

^. Also not a great question to ask on a very specialised forum, really, as we've discovered. Further musings follow.

Personally I wager I'd be alright financially either way, but may end up paying more for goods or enjoy higher taxes post-Brexit, if things go sideways economically. I'd feel more restricted in Exit Britain in terms of European travel, potential career moves and personal liberties. I doubt the immigration stuff would go away, or the poor would breathe any easier, simply from us departing the EU. Although I do believe we won't be time-travelling back to the fifties culturally or economically. The 2 years of negotiations, gambles and administrative flux would do my head in -- just think our recent negotiations, only bigger, being in the news 24/7 for that long!

The popular protest would likely shift back to the doors of Westminster and whatever scare the tabloids are whipping up next; but the electorate may not be able to do much else, especially if Scotland departs, leaving England and Wales a virtual one-party state. What else? I'd imagine the gutter trolls would be chuffed we'd left; then they would be rather confused as to what to do with their new-found free time, provided they are not being driven into the ground with excessive working hours or the retrenched welfare state, as appropriate.

Finally, post-Brexit, I'd probably become more aware of the potential security threats on the horizon; though again I doubt I'd let them rule my life. Hopefully we will see wisdom in continued cooperation with the continent in this regard; yet I doubt we'd find the new realities of information sharing easy or cost-free; the European battle group might end up a paper tiger too. However, I do also hope the stability of the European core can weather the shock of our departure, without letting Mr P carve off the Easter borderlands for his own plans and ends.

For my positive feels -- invert the leave negatives! Feel free to offer us your own 'man on the street' view.

 

[Tefal]

However chances are man in the street would be far worse with an exit.

not really.

chances are stay or leave when things settle there is unlikely to be any major difference one way or the other to the man on the street.

 

[Glaucus]

not really.

chances are stay or leave when things settle there is unlikely to be any major difference one way or the other to the man on the street.

Disagree, just from the amount of worker, consumer and environmental laws that wouldn't be enacted, whilst euorpe forges forward on all those things, make European life's better. Not saying we would rip those up, but we sure as hell wouldn't enact even more. Labour, Tories they're all the same and resist these laws.

 

[v0n]

Actually - why do people believe that Brexit can change something in terms of immigration or even immigration policy? Not only leaving EU doesn't turn back the clock or stop globalism, but it doesn't even mean that Labour and Conservatives will somehow fade into background and let UKIP or BNP rule the country?