The F1 2014 season

FrankJH said:
As for Vettel winning in "not the best car" - thats debatable. It certainly was way above average in every year he has been at RBR.
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I think the problem comes that with such fast paced development and the changes curcuit characteristics no team is guaranteed to have the fastest car at the next race just because they did at the previous one. Over the last 4 years there have been times when another team has been faster (such as Merc quali last year for example) but on average over each season I think RBR have had the quickest car.

I don't think anyone can seriously suggest Vettel is anything less than one of the top 3 or 4 drivers in F1. I am not convinced he is the best though. While I have personal preferences on who wins I would much rather have a close nail biting finish rather than anyone walking the champsionship.
 
Greboth said:
I don't think anyone can seriously suggest Vettel is anything less than one of the top 3 or 4 drivers in F1. I am not convinced he is the best though. While I have personal preferences on who wins I would much rather have a close nail biting finish rather than anyone walking the champsionship.
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If he has a bad car we will find out if he is a good driver or not. I will compare it to the McLaren 2009 season.
I rank him at 5th of all the drivers last season.
 
deuse said:
I rank him at 5th of all the drivers last season.
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Which drivers were above him [Vettel] last season?
After winning 9 races in a row and setting a new record, I'd say he was the top dog last year.

The team principals were asked to vote which driver was best in 2013. Vettel was voted as No.1. I'd agree with their choice.

For me, Vettel is arguably the most accomplished championship driver I have ever seen in my life. This includes Prost and MSc. Vettel is ahead of these drivers (by age/experience). Give Vettel the best car and he pretty much guarantees you the title. Give him a great car and he sets new records. The only driver I can say that about right now is Alonso and perhaps Kimi.

In 2012, Hamilton had the fastest (or at least joint fastest) car and he fluffed his chance. He finished behind Alonso and Kimi who were driving slower cars.
This year, it looks like Hamilton could well find himself in the fastest car, so we shall see if he can win the title.
 
FrankJH said:
Internal team politics ruined Webber's chance before it even begun.
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Team politics is part of the F1 game.
A great driver will rally those around them, to his own cause.
All the top drivers have this ability in common.
It cost Alonso the title in 2007 when he didnt know how to "play the game". When he moved to Ferrari, he had mastered the political game and IMO, it moved him up to the "best driver in F1" status.

A good example of a fast driver with no political game is Hamilton.
For all his speed, Hamilton has not mastered the political game and probably never will. While at McLaren, he should've arranged to get preferential treatment, while driving with Button and absolutely obliterated him.

Prost, Senna, MSc, Alonso, Vettel all have one thing in common. They are masters of working the political angle. Webber has poor political game, which is why he got eaten for breakfast by Vettel. I mean think about it, Vettel previously crashed into Webber and disobeyed direct team-orders (to beat Webber) and still got praised by his bosses. Behind closed doors Vettel must've done/said the right things for him to basically get off scott-free.

Politics in F1, have and always will be an important factor.
 
sunama said:
Which drivers were above him [Vettel] last season?
After winning 9 races in a row and setting a new record, I'd say he was the top dog last year.
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In my own opinion I would put(in no order) Alonso\kimi\Button\Lewis.

For me, Vettel is arguably the most accomplished championship driver I have ever seen in my life. This includes Prost and MSc. Vettel is ahead of these drivers (by age/experience). Give Vettel the best car and he pretty much guarantees you the title. Give him a great car and he sets new records. The only driver I can say that about right now is Alonso and perhaps Kimi.
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That's your opinion. And I'm happy you've got one.

In 2012, Hamilton had the fastest (or at least joint fastest) car and he fluffed his chance. He finished behind Alonso and Kimi who were driving slower cars.
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And it was worked out that if McLaren never made the mistakes they did he would have won the WDC by over 100 points.
But hey those are just facts ;)

This year, it looks like Hamilton could well find himself in the fastest car, so we shall see if he can win the title.
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What's to see? well that's unless you missed all the F1 races from 2007?
 
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FrankJH said:
clark was around when aero didnt give 90% to a car's abilities. Immense difference to start with.
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But he drove cars designed by an acknowledged (though flawed) genius. He didn't always win, but these were days when you'd often not finish half the races in year. No-one questioned Clark's talent in another golden era. In another 20 years I doubt few will question Vettel's.


FrankJH said:
As for Vettel winning in "not the best car" - thats debatable. It certainly was way above average in every year he has been at RBR.
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The most extreme example is in the Toro Rosso, which wasn't, in any way, the best car when he won at Monza. It was far from a bad car, and possibly had a better engine than the Red Bull at that point, but it wasn't the fastest car at all. He utterly dominated that race, leading from pole to finish and never even looked like remotely being challenged in difficult conditions.
 
this_is_gav said:
But he drove cars designed by an acknowledged (though flawed) genius. He didn't always win, but these were days when you'd often not finish half the races in year. No-one questioned Clark's talent in another golden era. In another 20 years I doubt few will question Vettel's.
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Watches the whole point of my post being completely and utterly missed.

this_is_gav said:
The most extreme example is in the Toro Rosso, which wasn't, in any way, the best car when he won at Monza. It was far from a bad car, and possibly had a better engine than the Red Bull at that point, but it wasn't the fastest car at all. He utterly dominated that race, leading from pole to finish and never even looked like remotely being challenged in difficult conditions.
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well done for choosing an infintessimally small part of his record

To paraphrase "the exception that proves the rule"

Every other win has been in a RBR which for the most part has been the best car on the grid at the time.

To paraphrase "the exception that proves the rule"
 
this_is_gav said:
But he drove cars designed by an acknowledged (though flawed) genius. He didn't always win, but these were days when you'd often not finish half the races in year. No-one questioned Clark's talent in another golden era. In another 20 years I doubt few will question Vettel's.
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WHAT? Jim Clark not only drove in what is now F1 but all so won the BTCC and drove in Indy car 1963\64\65\66\67 as well as Rallying.

But lets not forget the Le mans in 1959\60\61. How about his drive in Nascar? and his motorcycle racing.

Vimto pfff "No-one questioned Clark's talent" there was no need to. simples really.

Oh and how about the Formula One Non-Championship he raced in? or the Tasman Series and the Non-Championship Tasman Series
or the European Formula Two Championship 1967\68?
 
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FrankJH said:
Watches the whole point of my post being completely and utterly missed.
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Yeah, I'm not sure what your point actually is.


FrankJH said:
Every other win has been in a RBR which for the most part has been the best car on the grid at the time.

To paraphrase "the exception that proves the rule"
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The best driver generally ends up in the best car. Like I said, extreme example, but is clearly one of the best performances in F1 in the last decade. His performances since have been shocking.



deuse said:
WHAT? Jim Clark not only drove in what is now F1 but all so won the BTCC and drove in Indy car 1963\64\65\66\67 as well as Rallying.

But lets not forget the Le mans in 1959\60\61. How about his drive in Nascar? and his motorcycle racing.
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All drivers drove in all manner of races back then. Clark was famed for being adaptable and able to succeed in whatever he chose to be, but who knows what the current drivers could do if they were allowed such freedom? Clark's death in an F2 race was one of the catalysts to stop top-line F1 drivers from being allowed to race in other formulae, though it took a long time to get to the current stage. The best we've got now is the Race of Champions, which is mainly fun, isn't full of champions and heck hasn't even necessitated current racers in the past.

I'm not aware he ever raced motorbikes though. Are you merging Surtees and Clark?
 
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