The gypsy problem

[LCG-xyz]

I saw a documentary about the problems people face with the traveling community in the UK.

First of all let me preface this by saying not ALL gypsies, just the bad ones and apparently that's about 10-15% that cause all the problems for everyone.

Now it seems this has been going on for ages and the police are ill equipped and understaffed to deal with the situation, often scared to even enter sites.

The trouble makers are harassing, extorting, stealing, violent and armed.

So there's me, sat there in the old ivory tower, trying to think of a solution.

I'd send in armed military to the site in question, 300 men deep as a show of force and say:

"This is gonna stop, it can't continue like this and we won't allow it. You are going to have to find a different way of life because your behaviour is not acceptable in our community. We're not going to violate your rights as travelers however if offences don't stop you'll be moved out of this county.
You'll then be given two weeks probation at your new site, if it carries on there you'll be moved on again.
You get 5 strikes then you're deported."

Why should we put up with the disgusting behaviour of a few?

Ok, you can tear this apart now...

 

[LCG-xyz]

Cool.

Thank you your contribution and valuable insight.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Where would you deport them to?

Siberia? The Russians wouldn't put up with their sh**

Pay Russia £10k a head and it's probably still cheaper that what it would cost to have them here.

Hopefully it would never get to that stage.

Put yourself in the headspace of a traveling community. You've been moved on 3 times in 6 weeks, it's a massive upheaval every time and still there's few bad eggs who screw it up every time. They're capable of policing themselves but they choose not to because there are no real repercussions. In their minds they're untouchable.

I would look to change that equation.

 

[LCG-xyz]

You credit the average gypo with too much intelligence.

But at least they have the choice to take the carrot.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Ah yes, empowerment through armed intervention and mass deportation. A time honoured approach.

They are terrorising entire communities. Softly, softly doesn't work.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Actually start convicting and locking them up would be a start

It's a lot of time and legwork to prosecute, police are underfunded and understaffed, CPS is crap and they'd probably get community service anyway. Just get a load of guys with guns to go lay down the law and explain the consequences of non-compliance.

 

[LCG-xyz]

*

 

[LCG-xyz]

Cool, will we apply the same criteria to others, a kind of three strikes and you're deported to Siberia thing? Or is this just for travellers.

3 guys walk into a busy restaurant and start tipping over tables and knocking people out. Do you meet force with force or do you keep politely asking them to please stop what they're doing?

You understand it's a core component of human psychology that there must be consequences for actions?

 

[LCG-xyz]

So Romani gypsies?



I call the police, if I can restrain them with help I do, then I allow the law to do what it does. Or if it's looking particularly bad I get the hell out of there. Is there a point here somewhere?

There are no police or anyone else that can help. The point is, is it reasonable to meet force with force. I'm guessing that was your objection?

 

[LCG-xyz]

Btw, I would pay money (quite a bit actually) to see a documentary on a 'troubled' traveling community re-homed to Siberia and how they got on with the locals.

 

[LCG-xyz]

I have no objection to reasonable force, it's enshrined in law. What you're advocating is not reasonable force. You're talking about sending the army into civilian camps, removing people at gun point and then deporting them with zero grounds for doing so, and no criminal activity is not grounds for deportation, unless due process is followed and the person involved is not a British citizen.

To add another level of concern for me, you seem unwilling to say whether you would apply this same response to all law breakers of a similar severity, or whether you'd prefer to focus these armed deportations one a single minority group.

It seems that there's a bit of Gestalt theory with travelers, the sum of their actions is greater than the individual 'offences'. They sweep into a town/village and decimate what were peaceful communities with residents fearful of leaving the house and in some cases, fearful for their lives.

Are you advocating that kind of impact on law-abiding, tax-paying people who are just doing their best? Should those families be terrorised by people who think they're outside the law? People who don't pay for the consequences of their actions?

We have a system here, it works relatively well. Why should we tolerate people who don't care about others at all?

You're acting like forced exclusion isn't millennia old.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Lot's of things are millennia old, human sacrifice, genocide, age is not an indication if quality.

I've got no problem with punishment for people breaking the law, I just don't approve of a two tier legal system, they've existed for millennia too, and they don't tend to end well either.

If you've got a hard on for militarised police and forced relocation why not apply it even handily?

I wouldn't support it but I could understand it better at least.

Failing that just make sure the current laws are applied and enforced. Job done, significant airfare saved.

Are you deliberately ignoring the part where I said the police are ill-equipped, under-staffed and under-funded? It's the size of the task that denotes the level of the response.

You can't send a couple of bobbies in there with their pleases and thank yous.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Then equip them, staff them, and fund them?

Not possible. All the money goes on the military who are doing nothing.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Well get the soldiers to do the arrest paperwork. Efficiencies! Have you trolled yourself out yet? It's just I'm replying on a phone and my thumbs are getting tired.

It's sad that you see it as trolling. I followed your train of thought and I'd hopefully led you to see that what I'm suggesting is not only viable but a pretty fair course of action given the constraints on both sides of the equation.

None of this is going to happen, we're just shooting the breeze. Feel free to disengage at anytime if your fingers are tired.

 

[LCG-xyz]

An excellent idea, I suspect we are too far apart on this particular subject to find a middle ground, not that we should feel compelled to do so really. I've enjoyed the conversation though, another 30 mins of lockdown defeated!

I think it boils down to:
Do people who habitually break the law, who are violent and who have a severe impact on other people's lives and communities without repercussion have equal rights to equal treatment when the treatment has been proven not to work?

That's kind of the core of it isn't it?

I'm normally quite a left leaning idealist (if I had to put a title on it) but I'm guessing this is quite a right-leaning viewpoint?

 

[LCG-xyz]

Got any sources to back that up, especially the bit around funds being diverted away from police services/forces to the military which you seem to be suggesting?



If said travelers didn't comply, would you then start executing on site? Or is it purely a faux show of force?
As there's plenty of history of the former happening elsewhere, governments sending in their military to control population; usually result in wars though.

Well please tell me where our tax money is going because it's not going into the NHS or the police or the fire service or schools or mental health or disability benefits or any other service that benefits the public. Every one of those sectors has faced cutback after cutback.

Where is the money going?

 

[LCG-xyz]

Is this the same as The Jewish Problem?

Was Hitler right when he put the gypsies in with them?

If the answer is not no, then why not you just do it yourself.

Ah ha ha ha! Really, that's so weak it's laughable.

Hey, I understand, it can be difficult to comprehend nuance. No need to go full strawman, never go full full strawman.

 

[LCG-xyz]

The money goes exactly where it should be going, but there just isn't enough of it as the UK's tax burden, despite what the nation has been conditioned to believe, is chronically low.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14256

If there wasn't so much chronic wasting of money there would probably be enough for everything but we have creaky old systems that should be independently audited. Suddenly those champagne lunches for MPs stop being allowed on 'old faithful', the expenses account.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Nuance? There is no nuance in the title of this thread.

Oh you just read the title and not the content that expands over several pages...

Got it.

 

[LCG-xyz]

Nuance? There is no nuance in the title of this thread.

Anyway, the solution is more police and if it's not enough, the next solution is more police until it is resolved.

I see you've edited your post. So when will that be? When will there be enough? All the police are getting to retirement age and uptake is slow. Forces are lucky to get 30 people a year. So yeah, we could raise taxes, do recruitment drives, train the applicants, assign them to troubled areas. Should be doable in 5 years, 10 tops.

Or we could just utilise a resource already at hand.