The Holocaust is a Myth

[SexyGreyFox]

I don't think anyone fits that bill in SC.

Except me and I admit to it.

(I don't think that any races are superior to one another but I will take sides with my own race and I honestly believe that all people will do the same - if that makes me racist then so be it)


Lets imagine a law is passed where all the people have to get out of Wales and move to the rest of Europe while Wales is now given to Muslims to live in. It wouldn't be hard to imagine what the rest of the world thought about this action and I must admit that I'm on the Muslims side in this matter of Israel being created. Israel should have been put in Germany and not taken from the Muslims. No wonder they're bitching.

 

[triggerthat]

 

[Sleepy]

Withdrawn

 

[Pudney]

Israel should have been put in Germany and not taken from the Muslims. No wonder they're bitching.

In all fairness modern day Israel their historical home, and a much smaller size than what it was previously. Although I can see the arguement to have placed the state within Europe it ignores the fact that prior to WW2 the area that is now Israel and Palestine had already been earmarked as a place for the two countries. The area had been previously owned by the Ottoman Empire and shortly after WW1 the League of Nations handed over a large portion of land to Britain to administer until an arab and jewish state could be created from it. Then, after WW2 the UN passed the mandate to split the administrative region into Palestine and Israel, the Arabs disagreed with this and to cut a long story short both Israel and Jordan gained in land whilst the Palestinians lost out.

So, in summary, to say Israel was created as a way of making up for the holocaust is incorrect. That land had already been earmarked for the new state of Israel, and thus the above argument doesn't hold.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

So, in summary, to say Israel was created as a way of making up for the holocaust is incorrect. That land had already been earmarked for the new state of Israel, and thus the above argument doesn't hold.

So are you saying that nobody lived on that land and nobody got kicked off it?
I would have thought that people would be living there whether they were Ottoman or whatever desendants.
Its a bit like Staffordshire being earmarked for Arabs or Jews and then decades later we all get kicked out.
Were the people who lived on that land told that you can only stay here for a few decades and you must get off?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic because I don't know the full story.

 

[dirtydog]

Hmm, I can think of three major posters that comment could describe.

Who?

 

[VIRII]

I'm not too political myself nor much of a historian. However as far as I know Israel was originally established after WW2 to give the jewish people their own homeland. I guess this was intended as a form of compensation for how much crap they had to put up with, what with having millions of their people murdered and all...

This chap's argument is that seeing as it was a European nation (Germany) that was responsible for the killing then it should be a European nation that donated land to them. I can respect that view but his rascist way of putting it across by saying that the holocaust is a myth makes his statement sound like a load of cobblers. If our own Primeminister made comments like this then he would be out of Number 10 straight away, no questions asked.

I think you'll find the Jews established their nation after escaping the Egyptians.
Where do you think Bethlehem and Galilee and Jerusalem are? You know those places often associated with Jesus. You might also recall Jesus was a Jew.

 

[VIRII]

Too true, too true. It's such a shame that people feel the need to label people with more right-wing leanings as nazis, racists or fascists. It's especially cruel because the more liberal members never, ever get called commies, pinkos, bleeding-heart liberals, soft touches, "trendy liberals" or extremist apologists, right? .

I somehow don't think that being a "soft touch" is in the same catagory as being a Nazi.
I was not aware that being classed as liberal or left wing was insulting or had negative connotations associated with it either?
I can kind of understand why people would be insulted to be thought of as left wing, particularly when recent political compass results showed some extremely left wing members in SC but no particularly right wing ones .......

 

[Pudney]

So are you saying that nobody lived on that land and nobody got kicked off it?
I would have thought that people would be living there whether they were Ottoman or whatever desendants.
Its a bit like Staffordshire being earmarked for Arabs or Jews and then decades later we all get kicked out.
Were the people who lived on that land told that you can only stay here for a few decades and you must get off?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic because I don't know the full story.

Well, the main point of my argument was that the creation of Israel in the Middle East wasn't because Western powers wanted to repay the Jews fot the crimes commited against them, and thus the reasoning for placing Israel in Europe etc is flawed.

The land had been earmarked for the creation of Israel and Palestine for about 3 decades (Palestine was the name used for the Arab land during Roman times) before it occurred. When the change finally happened the Arabs weren't happy and started a war over it. They lost. In doing this they essentially shot themselves in the foot by not only losing the land that is Israel, but also the land that had been earmarked for themselves. So you could argue that in historical terms of landsize the Arabs would have actually been better off if they hadn't argued with the UN mandate. After all modern day Israel is only a shadow of it's former self, far smaller than it was a couple of millenia ago.

 

[VIRII]

I must admit that I'm on the Muslims side in this matter of Israel being created. Israel should have been put in Germany and not taken from the Muslims. No wonder they're bitching.

It didn't just appear out of the blue, Jews have lived around that area for an awfully long time. The area only became important to Islamic nations after it gained Holy status which it gained because of Jesus.

What Israel did do was go beyond its agree boundaries and that is a large part of the problem. Arab /Muslim interest in the area is nothing to do with a shortage of land but of owning the Holy City and always has been.

 

[VIRII]

Hmm, I can think of three major posters that comment could describe.

Care to name them?

 

[Sleepy]

Care to name them?

Who?

I didn't take note of one of the adjectives. I withdraw my comment.

 

[Sleepy]

I think you'll find the Jews established their nation after escaping the Egyptians.

The (Eygptian) exodus is a myth. The Jewish people originated in the area around the Jordan River. The first Isreal was conquered by the Assyrians around 800BCE, Judah was later conquered by the Babylons around 600BCE. Some jews did return from Babylonian captivity but the diasporia had begun.

 

[Arcade Fire]

I somehow don't think that being a "soft touch" is in the same catagory as being a Nazi.

Nor do I - but it's still something untrue that's intended as an insult, which was the point that I was making.

I was not aware that being classed as liberal or left wing was insulting or had negative connotations associated with it either?

I agree with you there, too. Did I say that it was insulting?

I can kind of understand why people would be insulted to be thought of as left wing, particularly when recent political compass results showed some extremely left wing members in SC but no particularly right wing ones .......

I don't think I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that people who think of themselves as moderate would be insulted if other people considered them to be left wing?

 

[Combat squirrel]

Of course, ironically this is a point the Iranian President was making. He is being lambasted for his expression of the opinion that the holocaust is a myth (which in all fairness he is entitled to have, misguided or not), yet people who express similar "myth" views of religion are not. Why should he have his opinion attacked on this matter, yet you expect your opinion on religion to be acceptable?

This is quite easy to answer really, its documented fact (film, pictures, people still alive that witnessed it) that the holocaust took place.

Yet in history of all time, there is not one shred of evidence that god exists, nothing, as far as I can tell (which id wager is nearly about right), is that god was made up by human beings to make themselves feel better about not dying and to try and instil into people morals etc etc as society became more advanced + complex.

Then different societys sprung up and wanted to change there ways slightly, thus they made a 'new' god etc etc etc (hence many religions formed), hence another reason why all religiious scripts read 'only obey our god, kill everyone else who doesnt believe'

I can go on for hours but, the point is, a rational person can weigh up the pros/cons etc and see that theres no evidence for god exisiting, but overwelming evidence pointing towards that humans made the idea of god up......we even wrote the books that supposdly the man upstairs wrote, everything a religious person can say about the ways of there religion can easly be disproved

Then you get those sorts, well prove god doesnt exist....... well we have good ideas about how the universe came to be (big bang etc etc), far from knowing for sure, but id imagine were going along the right track...at least were on a track...its a damn sight more reasonable than saying, 'oh it came to be, because it is so'

Most religions make me giggle in which they 100% beleive the earth was created 5000 years ago ................the trouble is with the human mind tho, you can present the evidence point blank in there face, Irrefutable evidence such as carbon dating and genetic markers, even if one was to say 'its not for sure this is correct' its HIGHLY likely that it is true though, yet they will just go '''''urrrrrrrrr ** no, its not true because my book some bloke wrote donkeys ago says it isnt', surly thats a sign of madness? or they use the, 'oh god planted that evidence there to try and see if you beleive in him or not' again i beleive the medical term for this is something like below:

Delusional

PSYCHOLOGY false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of psychiatric disorder

Does it not concern anyone else that most of the world is off there rockers?

EDIT:sorry to swing the debate back to religion, but its always a good debate to have

 

[Chronos-X]

EDIT:sorry to swing the debate back to religion, but its always a good debate to have

Well made points that needed saying. But I dont think we'll ever see a day when someone will go "you know what, I think you're onto something !"

 

[cleanbluesky]

admittedly my remark was ott.. but at the same time I feel that 90% of the time SC, and in fact GD, represents a fairly skewed view of british opinion. Or maybe I just hope it's skewed.... and in actuality I'm the weirdo and everyone in this country is xenophobic.

So your comments on Islam were...ironic

 

[cleanbluesky]

Israel should have been put in Germany and not taken from the Muslims. No wonder they're bitching.

Palestinian authority did enough recruiting for the Nazis, the Israelis are as apt to be in Palestine as they are anywhere else

 

[cleanbluesky]

Delusional

PSYCHOLOGY false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of psychiatric disorder

Does it not concern anyone else that most of the world is off there rockers?

EDIT:sorry to swing the debate back to religion, but its always a good debate to have

Bear in mind that under that definition, merely disagreeing with society is a criteria for mental illness.

 

[Pudney]

This is quite easy to answer really, its documented fact (film, pictures, people still alive that witnessed it) that the holocaust took place.

Yet in history of all time, there is not one shred of evidence that god exists, nothing, as far as I can tell (which id wager is nearly about right), is that god was made up by human beings to make themselves feel better about not dying and to try and instil into people morals etc etc as society became more advanced + complex.

Then different societys sprung up and wanted to change there ways slightly, thus they made a 'new' god etc etc etc (hence many religions formed), hence another reason why all religiious scripts read 'only obey our god, kill everyone else who doesnt believe'

I can go on for hours but, the point is, a rational person can weigh up the pros/cons etc and see that theres no evidence for god exisiting, but overwelming evidence pointing towards that humans made the idea of god up......we even wrote the books that supposdly the man upstairs wrote, everything a religious person can say about the ways of there religion can easly be disproved

Then you get those sorts, well prove god doesnt exist....... well we have good ideas about how the universe came to be (big bang etc etc), far from knowing for sure, but id imagine were going along the right track...at least were on a track...its a damn sight more reasonable than saying, 'oh it came to be, because it is so'

Most religions make me giggle in which they 100% beleive the earth was created 5000 years ago ................the trouble is with the human mind tho, you can present the evidence point blank in there face, Irrefutable evidence such as carbon dating and genetic markers, even if one was to say 'its not for sure this is correct' its HIGHLY likely that it is true though, yet they will just go '''''urrrrrrrrr ** no, its not true because my book some bloke wrote donkeys ago says it isnt', surly thats a sign of madness? or they use the, 'oh god planted that evidence there to try and see if you beleive in him or not' again i beleive the medical term for this is something like below:

Delusional

PSYCHOLOGY false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of psychiatric disorder

Does it not concern anyone else that most of the world is off there rockers?

EDIT:sorry to swing the debate back to religion, but its always a good debate to have

You have of course missed my point. My post wasn't about whether the holocaust is a fact and whether religion is factual. My point is why is it ok for you to express your opinion (despite having no proof to back up the lack of existence) whereas it's not ok for someone to air their opinon?

As for a debate about religion you've overlooked several key points.

1) Science tells us the Big Bang created the universe. Why? Why are the laws of physics the way they are? Why did intelligent life come to being on this planet when the probability of it happening is by the scientific definition impossible? Because that's the way it is? That's not acceptable for religious belief but acceptable for scientific belief?
2) Most religions don't believe the Earth is only 5000 years old. A radical minority do but the majority don't. That's a factually incorrect statement. Therefore your conclusion that "most of the world is off their rockers" is obviously a ridiculous statement to make.
3) There is no evidence that God exists, but there is no evidence that God doesn't. Therefore your conclusion that humans made them up is unsupported. Perhaps you can argue that religious texts were made up by humans, but unless you have access to a time machine the world doesn't know about then that is only your belief, and more importantly, unprovable, just as the existence of God.

I'm meant to be working, so that's it for now, but remember this, science and religion aren't mutually exclusive, science seeks to answer how things happen, religion answers why they happen. To replace one with the other is ludicrous.