The Jose Mourinho Appreciation Thread

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The problem is Frank, Mourinho isn't making the most out of what he has and is always happier to blame his players or lack of signings for any issues instead of trying to do his best. I would say we had the 2nd best squad in the league last season and easily the best keeper who probably added a good 10 points to our final total. We have a left back who has shown that he has masses of potential (Shaw) but he barely gets a sniff, a LM/LW who is one of the hottest young players in Europe who doesn't get a look in most of the time (Martial) and who will likely leave at the first chance. I'm not sure that any of our players are massively enjoying their football or playing to their potential apart from DDG. .

I think its very clear from last season that the right wing area is a very weak spot, I cant really understand why anyone debates that - Valencia and Mata are incredibly weak on that side, every opposition knows that majority of our goals come from the left / central areas so defences are compressed into that half - 2/3 because they don't have to worry about the right at all. Every single player from Rashford / Martial / Sanchez / Mata and even Lingard on some occasions were completely invisible in games when played in that area of the pitch. I think that's proof enough that JM is trying to get things to work with what he has.

Shaw is a difficult one, he has had consistant fitness concerns since before he arrived, the horrendous injuries don't help on top of that but admittedly some of that is down to JM's treatment of him in public also - but even so given the stature of Utd we should still be going for a better option than a converted winger - who usually manages to hit the first defender with every cross (much like Valencia on the other side).

Its highly debatable we have the 2nd best squad, we certainly don't have the 2nd best defence - the stats are just assisted hugely by the majesty of DDG - I wouldn't be surprised if you are doing him an injustice by saying just 10 points - more like 20. Smalling /Jones and Rojo have no place in the squad after this length of time.

Compare Sane at City to Martial at United. One has been backed by his manager and supported while he adjusts to the premier league and makes mistakes and the other has been ignored, thrown on for 10 minutes at the end of a game where the rest of the team around him barely moves and is then criticised for his performance. One has rewarded his manager with massive improvements and a large part of their title success towards the end of the season and the other one looks like he is just treading water until he can leave to play somewhere else. Sane at the start of the season didn't look like he was even half decent. Lost the ball a lot, didn't really accomplish much when he played but Pep persisted with him because he saw potential.

City are winning a game 2-0 and they will give a player some time on the pitch. United are winning 2-0 and Mourinho will wait until the 75th minute and put on Fellaini to see the game out.

Even if you gave Mourinho 250m every summer to spend he would still complain that the players he bought aren't playing well enough or that he needs more. He always blames someone else and thinks that the squad is the problem instead of his managerial skills.

Sane has quite a bit more experience 1st off (his seasons back in Germany appear to have helped him enourmously), its not a like for like comparison at all (apart form position)
Apart from that, Martial does have a bad habit of being completely invisible in large proportions of games - when he comes alive he can be brilliant without question but Utd cant afford to carry him SO much. every EPL game you need all 10 outfield players working majority of the time and this just doesn't happen with Martial.

Apart from the very beginning of the season when Utd won 3 or 4 on the bounce 4-0 Utd rarely got to 2-0 early in games anyway (and quite a few of those goals were late anyway) , and to be honest the performance levels were so up and down from game to game that's hardly surprising. I detest Fellaini being at Utd, and don't think he should have been re-signed at all. and hopefully with Periera showing decent promise in pre-season that means less visibility of Fellaini in midfield hopefully (and he isn't that great a striker either)

There are blatant deficiencies in the Utd 1st team let alone the squad (the whole back 4 / back 5 minus Bailly, admittedly with his own injury concerns, and Lindeloff who needs time to settle - need completely revamping - we need more creativity in midfield (esp on the right) and really more decent options in cm (not sure about Mctominey but he deserves time, but needs to concentrate harder imo)
esp if we are going to go with 3 in cm for most games.

the fact that we have only spent £75m this summer and already need to sell before buying anyone else should send alarm bells ringing everywhere imo - whether you like JM or not.
Also pretty pointless giving JM a contract ext in Jan and then not backing him fully in the summer. Remember we can still sell (admittedly abroad only) for 4 weeks, there shouldn't be pressure on selling during the few days left of when we can still buy players.

Its pretty harsh to blame JM on some things (like Mikhi not working out, Zlatan's injury and Bailly's health , and Bailly is still Utd's best defender). I know a lot of people want to write off Lindeloff but imo he just needs more time to show how good he is. If Pogba was able to be more consistant it would bring a whole new dimension to the team.

Did they **** it up or were they simply not willing to pay such a big fee on a 28 year old? Iirc, you were very much against Utd spending so much on him last summer. As I said in my reply to Loki, the board's job is to make funds available but make sure they're not spent recklessly. They have to draw the line somewhere.
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Even this summer there are numerous reports that the board wouldn't go "the extra few million" to buy Peresic last sumer - I cant see a few million making a difference between reckless and non-reckless. All prices have gone stupid since Neymar moved , its imposslbe to say whats worth it or not
admittedly with hindsight its easy for supporters to know why we desperately needed Peresic last season, but surely that's the experience of JM (and in theory the board) should know how big a hole was left over that few million. Given how much the board agreed to pay Sanchez 6 months later, personally it sounds like Peresic would have been the MUCH cheaper option. All because of a few million.

He wanted "4 specialists" in his first summer and he said Utd could challenge for the title - he got them all at huge expense. He was then given huge money again the following summer, including spending a big fee on an aging Matic. You then signed another aging player in Sanchez, on a hugely expensive contract. If two positions Mourinho still wants players in are as what's being reported, CB & winger, then it's easy to understand why the board aren't willing to spend huge fees, especially if they don't believe they're getting value - whether that be due to age or quality. As I asked Loki, if you were running the finances at Utd would you not be slightly concerned about spending a huge fee on another CB, having already bought two expensive CB's in the previous 2 summers? Would you not be worried about spending £50m+ on Perisic or Willian, having already brought in Sanchez, knowing that in a couple of years they're going to need replacing again?
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bailly wasn't expensive in wages or transfer fee
Ibra came on a free and his already huge wages reflected that with signing on fee etc
Pogba still isn't consistant - very little JM can do about that, its more down to the player (albeit formations help)
Mkhi was never consistant - again not expensive in himself as a transfer - so no "at vast expense" it definitely wasn't for two of these.

Matic also wasn't that expensive - between EPL teams £40m is not expensive at all in last summers market

you didn't buy two expensive cb's in the last two summers - because of Neymar esp (even before that in reality) 30m is a budget buy, you of all people should see that after seeing Liverpool spend £70m+ on a CB in the last few months. It also depends on tactics - if you need to play 3 CB's in every game you need three 1st choice players - we have tried endless years of Smallin& Jones and they are clearly not good enough. We need a 3rd first choice with experience.....which will cost money.

we have some promising kids coming through at CB, but they still need experience at this level, but you still need a full first choice list of 3 CB's for starting berths. If one purchase is that much older (and potentially cant play every game but plays the most important) then that gives the kids the opportunity to grow and get the experience befoere the older purchase retires

So yeah, in a nutshell, Mourinho’s attitude has a huge bearing on Utd’s negative press, and the journo’s will be waiting like snarling wolves for every little mistake that’s made at Old Trafford.

That has got something to do with it for sure - but there is a lot of press that are just highly negative of Utd just because they want to be.

Pep moans off the record and it gets reported in other ways - JM moans on record and he gets criticized for doing so. both are wrong in their own way but the press definitely idolizes Pep just because he is Pep (so he gets away with more from the press)
 
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I have to admit, the Pep sycophancy gets on my nerves at times. Sky Sports are awful for it. I’m surprised Jamie Rednapp can speak so easily with his tongue permanently rammed up Peps ringpiece.

It’ll wear off though. They had the same level of sycophancy towards Mourinho, when he rocked up to Chelsea as the Special One. Couldn’t get enough of him. They get bored in the end though and move on to the next new exciting faces. Emery and Sarri are not big enough names for them at present though, so they’ll have to stick with Pep and Klopp for another year, unless Mourinho gets booted for ZZ, then you’ll see a MASSIVE shift in attitude like you’ve never seen before.
 
Even this summer there are numerous reports that the board wouldn't go "the extra few million" to buy Peresic last sumer - I cant see a few million making a difference between reckless and non-reckless. All prices have gone stupid since Neymar moved , its imposslbe to say whats worth it or not
admittedly with hindsight its easy for supporters to know why we desperately needed Peresic last season, but surely that's the experience of JM (and in theory the board) should know how big a hole was left over that few million. Given how much the board agreed to pay Sanchez 6 months later, personally it sounds like Peresic would have been the MUCH cheaper option. All because of a few million.

I was referring to last summer and I've seen the stories that Utd wouldn't pay an extra £5m but football clubs have to place values on players and have to draw a line somewhere. Sanchez, effectively, being more expensive that Perisic isn't justification for signing Perisic. The 'extra few million' argument regarding Perisic doesn't tell you much unless you know where Utd were starting from - did they value him at £30m but were willing to overspend by £10m (for example) but Inter wanted £45m? What happens if Utd offered the £45m and Inter then say £50m? It's only an extra £5m after all.

Auctions would never end if everybody used the 'it's only an extra...." argument.

bailly wasn't expensive in wages or transfer fee
Ibra came on a free and his already huge wages reflected that with signing on fee etc
Pogba still isn't consistant - very little JM can do about that, its more down to the player (albeit formations help)
Mkhi was never consistant - again not expensive in himself as a transfer - so no "at vast expense" it definitely wasn't for two of these.

Matic also wasn't that expensive - between EPL teams £40m is not expensive at all in last summers market

you didn't buy two expensive cb's in the last two summers - because of Neymar esp (even before that in reality) 30m is a budget buy, you of all people should see that after seeing Liverpool spend £70m+ on a CB in the last few months. It also depends on tactics - if you need to play 3 CB's in every game you need three 1st choice players - we have tried endless years of Smallin& Jones and they are clearly not good enough. We need a 3rd first choice with experience.....which will cost money.

we have some promising kids coming through at CB, but they still need experience at this level, but you still need a full first choice list of 3 CB's for starting berths. If one purchase is that much older (and potentially cant play every game but plays the most important) then that gives the kids the opportunity to grow and get the experience befoere the older purchase retires

With hindsight, after Neymar's transfer inflated fees even further, Bailly wasn't overly expensive but at the time he most certainly was. £30m odd would have made him the 4th(?) most expensive CB ever. And I'm not defending the success of the signings he made. I'm asking you to put yourself in the board's position. As I said, Mourinho sat in his press conference and said with those 4 signings he expected to challenge for the title. He got those 4 players and yes, it was at vast expense! Excluding the world's most expensive 'free' signing, Utd spent £150m net that summer - that's a ****ing lot of money!

After getting everything he wanted, he fell well short of the target he set by himself. Saying Pogba is inconsistent isn't a defence of Mourinho - if he's identified the players and the one coaching them then he's accountable.

Despite all that, he was then backed again the following summer. And yes £40m on a 29 year old is a huge amount of money. Had Utd spent £80m on a 23 year old you wouldn't be saying that was not expensive - £40m on a 29 year old is at least as expensive if not more. And VVD was expensive (I was saying that when he was being touted about for £50m in the summer too) and he was signed post Neymar - Lindelof was not a budget buy! Utd have committed €45m on him - that would make him the 6th(?) most expensive CB ever and at the time he signed, the 4th most expensive ever.

Anyway, all these valuations are subjective but you're missing the underlying point. 48 months and hundreds of millions of pounds ago Mourinho needed 4 signings to turn Utd into title challenges. How well has that money been spent and how close are Utd to challenging?
  • Bailly - constantly injured and ended up being dropped from the side at the end of last season.
  • Pogba - Inconsistent (your words not mine before any other Mancs get upset)
  • Mikhi - Rubbish and binned off
  • Zlatan - Done what was expected of him
  • Lindelof - Looks rubbish and Mourinho's pet dog is already blaming him on the club - claiming Utd bought him as he was cheaper than Mourinho's other targets. He said he was Mourinho's first choice before he signed though.
  • Matic - Done what was expected of him but given his age he was expensive and will need replacing soonish
  • Lukaku - Expensive but done what was expected of him.
Ignoring the fact that deep down even the biggest Mourinho backer doesn't expect him to be at Utd for the long term, having signed 2 CB's and at the very least Mourinho isn't sold on either, why would you trust him to sign another for more than what the club valued them at? Could you honestly say with any certainty that if Utd signed Maguire for £65m that Mourinho wouldn't want another CB next summer? Having signed Mikhi & Sanchez, would you trust him to sign another 29 year old attacker for (relative to their age) huge money? As I said in my last post, even if they're successful this time you're still going to have to replace them in a couple of seasons.

Man Utd are run as a business. As I've said time and time again, they loosened the purse strings and appointed Mourinho because they need to establish themselves in the top 4 again. With Utd now relatively secure in the top 4 and Mourinho not delivering on what he said, despite spending/signing more than he said he needed, it's absolutely no surprise to me that Utd are hesitant in spending more on a player than they believe he's worth and or signing 28/29 year olds for big fees.
 
Good Read.

Who would have thought City would have blown the league apart in the way they did, no one could have accounted for that so Jose has only just missed his target but I will say United have been dire to watch.Jose was the same when he was at Chelsea the second time I just wanted him to tell the players to attack attack attack but we were far too reserved and defensive.

He did get Ashley Young in the England squad somehow?!?!?
 


Its not surprising how completely one sided you are throughout this

"an extra few million" doesn't imply the 30-40% price increase you are implying - completely different kettle of fish. An extra few million also doesn't change by a massive amount the viability of the player (unless that transfer cost was "only a few million" to start with - and then the % increase becomes a factor anyway.

£30m two summers ago was not expensive at all for a player of his age / calibre. Just because he plays in x position is completely irrelevant. You also cant blame JM for his injury problems still one of the best defenders at the club.



The EPL improves nearly every year one way or the other (either in pure competitiveness throughout the league - very few "easy" games any more, or by one or two teams right at the top) - nearly every top club get replacements in before they sell, and if the stories are correct Everton were happy to pay £22m for Rojo - which imo would have been good business for both clubs and the player - if Utd had got a replacement to start with. The fact Utd wouldnt sanction enough money to pay for the right player is down to them. I would have happily seen Rojo and Smalling sold if Utd had gotten one decent player in before hand.

You are seriously deluding yourself if you think £150m is a lot of money for the top 4 , it really isn't. When the club is turning over nearly 4 times that annually and pulling in probably more than £150m in sponsorship alone (main sponsor, kit and sleeve) without all the other smaller deals - £150m really is nothing after EPL / CL / TV payouts and so forth.

Of course every club is a business (although not to the scale of Chelsea a few years ago selling multiple kids every summer for £10-20m) but the business doesn't exist if the performance on the pitch get worse and worse.

Its an absolute gamble whether Utd get top 4 after this summer - City didn't need to move on and they could even potentially give away 15% of their points from last season and still win the league. Chelsea and Arsenal have no pressure on themselves at all with new managers (and imo Chelsea have done decent business even if they didn't get a striker), and Liverpool have very decent signings that need to adapt to the new league (and each other).

The only mistake JM has made transfer wise was Mkhi - but then you could really say SAF did exactly the same mistake with Kagawa (from the same club too) - and its hard to know whether Utd actually lost in that deal until we know if Alexis will actually perform this season.

I still find it amazing that the extra £500m City have spent in the last ten years didn't start to show up sooner than this. Even Chelsea have spent a net £100m more than Utd in the same period (before this summer)

Pogba just needs to care more about the football and less about his hair and twitter and he might actually be more consistant.
 
Its not just the transfer fees though is it, The wages your paying for them and there age is a factor, The wage Sanchez for example has its bloody bonkers considering he has been utter tripe for you since you signed him,He is attacking the club saying need world class players, He needs to turn up himself. Pogba proved at world cup he is quality difference there is a team working together and a manager thats not attacking every one at any given chance. Dont get me wrong Ive never thought much of Pogba myself but I cant deny what he did at the World Cup or Juve.

Your comment on Pogba needs to care more about football, Could easily say the same for Mourinho, He makes out like your team is ***** and your youth is all crap, There being managed by a miserable old git who has throw his toys of pram all because he couldn't spend more and more. He needs to learn how to improve teams from within to an extent.

Mourinho is the cancer of your club at the moment. Nothing is ever his fault, He doesn't build teams or players, He doesn't manage a squad he just buys to suit that season and assume he can win it forgets the future of the club for when he is gone.
 
Its not surprising how completely one sided you are throughout this

"an extra few million" doesn't imply the 30-40% price increase you are implying - completely different kettle of fish. An extra few million also doesn't change by a massive amount the viability of the player (unless that transfer cost was "only a few million" to start with - and then the % increase becomes a factor anyway.

I'm not surprised that you've completely missed the point of what I've said but am surprised that you've chose now to reply to me when Utd have been briefing the press exactly what I've been saying for weeks.

I didn't say the price was 30-40% more. I said that the 'extra £5m' argument was a nonsense and means nothing unless you know where Utd's starting point for negotiations were. It maybe reached a point where they were only £5m apart but how much was that already over and above what Utd valued him at? What happens when Inter then increase their price by 'just a few £m more"? Just like with any sensible person using ebay, you have to draw a line and say no, I'm not spending that extra few £'s. I would strongly suggest you stay away from ebay Frank.
£30m two summers ago was not expensive at all for a player of his age / calibre. Just because he plays in x position is completely irrelevant. You also cant blame JM for his injury problems still one of the best defenders at the club.

The 4th most expensive CB ever at the time was not expensive? Ok Frank :o And yes, the position he plays is entirely relevant because clubs point to sales of similar players when benchmarking the value of their players. You only have to see reports of Leciester's supposed demands to see that - they weren't basing Maguire's value on what Liverpool paid for Keita but what we paid fo VVD.
You are seriously deluding yourself if you think £150m is a lot of money for the top 4 , it really isn't. When the club is turning over nearly 4 times that annually and pulling in probably more than £150m in sponsorship alone (main sponsor, kit and sleeve) without all the other smaller deals - £150m really is nothing after EPL / CL / TV payouts and so forth.

Of course every club is a business (although not to the scale of Chelsea a few years ago selling multiple kids every summer for £10-20m) but the business doesn't exist if the performance on the pitch get worse and worse.

Crikey, you must be Bill Gates. £150m net isn't much? That would explain why we've seen multiple clubs spend this sort of money every summer? Oh, no we haven't. How many times have we seen clubs spend that much in a window before? Off the top of my head I can only think of PSG, City and Utd that summer. And even City with all their billions of oil money wouldn't pay the asking price to sign Fred in January or Jorginho this summer - maybe even City don't believe that level of spending is sustainable.

I'm well aware that to generate money Utd need to be competing, as I've always said that's the only reason why they appointed Mourinho and allowed him to spend what they did in the past couple of summers but they're not going to allow that to continue. The Glazers want Utd finishing in the top 4 on the smallest budget possible because that £150m net you think isn't much, actually is a lot and more importantly, it could be paid out in dividends to them rather than being wasted on 29 year olds.
Its an absolute gamble whether Utd get top 4 after this summer - City didn't need to move on and they could even potentially give away 15% of their points from last season and still win the league. Chelsea and Arsenal have no pressure on themselves at all with new managers (and imo Chelsea have done decent business even if they didn't get a striker), and Liverpool have very decent signings that need to adapt to the new league (and each other).

You still have a huge squad, significantly costlier than all but City's (maybe Chelsea closed that gap this summer) so if qualifying for the CL is such a big gamble you can probably understand why Utd don't want to give Mourinho an open cheque book to spend more because given what he's had to spend over all but City, Utd should be a certainty for the top 4.
 
After the comments he made in the States and then Utd not signing anybody else I simply cannot see Jose lasting beyond Xmas, he will explode at some point and then Utd have a decision to make, who they will replace him with is anybody's guess but I wouldn't be surprised to see ZZ linked really heavily should Utd not hit the ground running.
 
Players it seems don't want to play for United due to the style of play either.

Cant remember the name now but a recent summer target rejected United down to the tactics employed.

Not good to be honest. Things don't look or sound right at United with Mourinho at the moment.

They need a new manager really as the likes of Pogba are going to leave because of it.

Probably need a shake up at board level as well.
 
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Half the problem is that we have no idea whats going on behind the scenes. United stories generate clicks and sell papers so most of the stuff you read is complete ********. If we start the season well we will be fine. The issues will come if we have periods where we aren't winning games and aren't playing well.

I'm somewhat ambivalent towards the coming season. We have a good team, easily good enough for top 4 and a decent run in the CL but I want us to start playing with a bit more flair and excitement. I hate to say it but the title should be between City and Liverpool. Both sides play good football and have top managers who know how to improve their team/players as well as how to add to their squad sensibly. Yes City have spent vast sums of money but they have at least got some value for money from it.

United have proven that a manager is almost certainly your most important asset as we have gone through 2 awful managers and are currently on our third who simply refuse to play exciting football. Its like they are all too scared to fail that they play it safe and ultimately lose the support of the players/fans and subsequently their results fall away. RM have had the luxury of having arguably one of the strongest squads ever over the past 4-5 years and as a result its hard to decide how good their managers have been but the way someone like Guardiola has got City playing should be a wake up call to United. Get a good manager , give them the freedom to play good football and with the money we have we can compete for silverware again.

All of the top clubs in the world play good football. The only real outliers are Atletico Madrid and they never quite make it to the very top with any regularity. They however are doing it on a budget with their best players being regularly poached. We really have no excuse.

Mourinho is never going to have us playing the sort of football we are happy with and he is never going to attract players of the highest quality without making United a top team in Europe again.
 
Half the problem is that we have no idea whats going on behind the scenes. United stories generate clicks and sell papers so most of the stuff you read is complete ********. If we start the season well we will be fine. The issues will come if we have periods where we aren't winning games and aren't playing well.
There's many a time where stories are put out without any substance but that's clearly not the case with the stories that came out last night. Every outlet was reporting the exact same story - they had clearly been briefed by somebody at Utd. You expect Mourinho to be defensive and (not so) subtly blame Woodward for failings in the transfer market but you rarely see clubs fighting back and blaming the manager. This is Utd protecting themselves from criticism and slapping down Mourinho. Is Mourinho suddenly going to change his approach in regards to transfers, fall in line and stop blaming others when there's a poor result? I highly doubt it and can no longer see any way Mourinho's still Utd manager in 12 months time, if not sooner.
 
It feels like the latter stages of the Moyes and LvG eras, just a matter of time now. Woodward has lost confidence in Mourinho, and the players don't want to play for him.

As for the fans, they're dreading every game.
 
I don't think anything will change, the players aren't playing for the manager. So, while I'd give it a few more games, we might as well get rid of him sooner rather than later.

As for a replacement, it depends who is available, and we need a Director of Football in place who would be happy to work with the incoming manager too.

I like Poch, but he wouldn't be available until the end of the season. Zidane would be interesting but more of a risk than Poch. I like Simeone but I'm not sure he's a great fit.

Of the available managers, Zidane seems somewhat logical, as long as an experienced structure is in place above him (Director of Football etc).
 
Going for Zidane now is like going after Pep after he left Barca, is he a great or does he just look great because he has one of the best squads in the world? I haven't seen enough of them to tell really.
 
I’m really not sure Zidane would be a good choice. Guardiola was seen as a brilliant manager by a lot of people but it wasn’t a sure thing because he hadn’t managed a lesser side. He still hasn’t but he has elevated a top city side to a real powerhouse. Their current depth is insane. Part of this is that city have build their entire club around a long term strategy and United seem to be an utter mess from top to bottom in football terms.

We need to take a leaf out of their book and structure the club properly and get the right manager in who plays good football.
 
Man Utd should do what Chelsea should have done and fine all the players and end this player power nonsense(I know they wont as it's easier to get rid of one than many but it's ridiculous that players can down tools whenever they like and still get paid) Jose has not been wrong in what he has said about the players or the upper management, these namby pamby players can't handle criticism.
 
When did Chelsea fine all their players? As for this player power/can't handle criticism stuff - everybody is different and different people respond positively or negatively to different things. It's Mourinho's job to get the best out of those players both from a motivational/man management point of view and a technical & tactical point of view.

As for the talk about who could/should replace him. Utd need to get their house in order and decide on an overall strategy and only then start searching for the right manager because the issues they're facing now is because Mourinho was a compromise between what they wanted and how they wanted to get there.
 
When did Chelsea fine all their players? As for this player power/can't handle criticism stuff - everybody is different and different people respond positively or negatively to different things. It's Mourinho's job to get the best out of those players both from a motivational/man management point of view and a technical & tactical point of view.

As for the talk about who could/should replace him. Utd need to get their house in order and decide on an overall strategy and only then start searching for the right manager because the issues they're facing now is because Mourinho was a compromise between what they wanted and how they wanted to get there.
He said Chelsea should have done
 
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