The Jose Mourinho Appreciation Thread

[fez]

First of all, you've completely missed the point. Regardless of how better or worse the two squads were when both managers arrived, I was responding to your argument that City have paid more on their defenders than Utd have and that being a defence of your poor defence. This argument is a nonsense. Utd chose those CB's and you can be 100% certain that when they drew up their list of targets, the fact that you were signing Pogba and Lukaku for £90m apiece was factored into who you could therefore go after. Utd and Mourinho have chose to concentrate their funds on other positions and when you choose to spend 2x as much on your central midfielder and striker than what rival clubs are spending, you cannot then complain that your rivals have spent more on CB's. Again, had Utd chose to only spend £50m each on central midfielders or strikers then you could have afford to sign 2 x £70m CB's - Utd/Mourinho chose not to though.

Of course you can complain. When you have Aguero, KdB and Silva you don't need to splash out on attackers or midfielders as much. Splashing loads of money on defenders when you have a weak attack and midfield would have gone down like a lead balloon. I really struggle to see how you can suggest that United and City were in a similar position squad wise when Pep and Mourinho took over.

As for your post, I've been over this before. Utd and City finished on level points and lets not try to rewrite history regarding the perceived quality of the players you've listed. Prior to Pep/Mourinho arriving not a single Utd supporter is swapping Rashford for Sterling (the latter was verging on a flop in his first season at City), not a single Utd supporter is swapping Martial for KDB (remember KDB was playing as a wide attacker pre-Pep), Otamendi looked like a car crash defender (I'm not sure he's much better now, he just has less defending to do), Fernandinho was decent but nothing more, Kompany was and still is nothing more than a squad player due to his injuries, Silva imo looked on his way out (there was lots of speculation that he would be sold by Pep when he arrived) and like KDB was very much a front 3/4 player rather than the central midfielder he is today. The only player from City that you've listed that is still performing the same role and at the same level today as they were before Pep arrived is Aguero and you could probably argue that he's not as pivotal to City now as he was then. The City side that Pep took over, or at least the side that last competed for the league was based around Hart, Zabaleta, Clichy/Kolarov, Toure, Silva (in an attacking midfield role) and Aguero - only Aguero remains.

Thats complete rubbish. KdB was an amazing player before Pep showed up and I would happily have swapped Martial for him. Rashford had potential and I'm sure a lot of us would have kept him over Sterling but there wouldn't have been much in it. Fernandinho was a fixture of the City team if an unspectacular player and Kompany was always quality when fit and a large part of their team leadership regardless. Otamendi was a quality defender before he came to City and despite his poor start there was always a good defender there. Saying Silva was finished is also a bit of a joke. He was always a top player and a massive part of their squad unless injured.

I assume that based on your equation of PL points total equalling the quality of a squad that Chelsea had a rubbish squad the season Mourinho was sacked? City have had a better squad than United for at least 8 years now and the distance has just grown recently.

Yes City have spent £100m odd more than Utd in the past three summers since the two managers arrived (although most if not all of that is covered by Utd paying more in wages) but that only makes up part of the difference between where the two sides are now. Pep's improved players and in some cases transformed them into completely new players, playing new positions but he's also spent better. I said at the start of this thread, Utd have spent poorly - far too many players have flopped and even those that haven't, there's very few that you could argue have performed over and above what you'd expect for the fees you've paid. Lukaku and Matic haven't been flops but equally they've not been massive successes either. City (under Pep at least) have bought in players to fit a particular system and way of playing and these players have been pivotal to allowing City to play this way and produce the best PL season we may ever see. Utd on the other hand have had this scatter gun approach and 5 transfer windows later look no closer to competing for the title than wen Mourinho arrived.

I'm not questioning that Pep has been great for City but everyone looks better when they are in a team that is happy, playing good football and winning. Mistakes don't matter so much, players can take risks and no one is complaining after the game if it cost a goal in a 4 - 1 win. We have spent poorly but I have no idea how anyone in their right mind can think that United:

A) Started at the same point squad quality wise when Mourinho/Pep took over.
B) Don't have budget constraints unlike City
C) Can magically ignore 3 previous seasons of utter mess before Mourinho took over.

Whats the saying "buy cheap, buy twice". Mourinho has clearly been after new defenders and the club has penny pinched on them. Either Mourinho says "no, I don't want them" and he gets nothing or he hopes they come good and he has bought a gem. I wonder how City would be getting on if they hadn't bought an entire new backline and keeper in the past 2 years?

 

[Trusty]

At the end of the day, UTD were a dynasty that's fallen, it was never going to be a quick fix, how long did it take Liverpool to get back to the top?
You sack Mourinho, you start all over again. UTD are going through a sticky patch, nothing more than that, there's no imminent apocalypse or anything, Mourinho is a top manager thats won stuff everywhere. He'll get UTD back competing, but he needs Ed Woodward on his side.

 

[BaZ87]

Of course you can complain. When you have Aguero, KdB and Silva you don't need to splash out on attackers or midfielders as much. Splashing loads of money on defenders when you have a weak attack and midfield would have gone down like a lead balloon. I really struggle to see how you can suggest that United and City were in a similar position squad wise when Pep and Mourinho took over.

Pep turned KDB and Silva into, arguably, the best two central midfielders in the League. Neither were central midfielders when he arrived - he coached thm and converted them into the players they are right now*. Again, had I asked any Utd fan whether they'd take KDB over Martial 2 years ago 99% would have taken Martial. If I asked Utd fans if they'd have take Silva over Mata 99% would have taken Mata (we even had a thread with a poll re Silva & Mata before he joined Utd and iirc Mata came out on top). You are kidding yourself if you're suggesting City were a million miles ahead of Utd when both managers arrived.

Maybe had Mourinho been willing or able to work with Martial then you wouldn't have had to give out a monster contract to Ibra and or sign Lukaku for £90m. Mourinho's failings and decisions are not a defence.

*Both were more than decent players before obviously but not nearly the players they are now.

Thats complete rubbish. KdB was an amazing player before Pep showed up and I would happily have swapped Martial for him. Rashford had potential and I'm sure a lot of us would have kept him over Sterling but there wouldn't have been much in it. Fernandinho was a fixture of the City team if an unspectacular player and Kompany was always quality when fit and a large part of their team leadership regardless. Otamendi was a quality defender before he came to City and despite his poor start there was always a good defender there. Saying Silva was finished is also a bit of a joke. He was always a top player and a massive part of their squad unless injured.

I assume that based on your equation of PL points total equalling the quality of a squad that Chelsea had a rubbish squad the season Mourinho was sacked? City have had a better squad than United for at least 8 years now and the distance has just grown recently.

Easy to say now that you'd have taken KDB over Martial but it's not that long ago that Martial was the best thing since sliced bread in Utd fans eyes. KDB was a very talented player but he was no where near the player he is today - as I said, he certainly wasn't a central midfielder when Pep arrived. And I didn't say Fernandinho wasn't a fixture in City's side but nobody was touting him as the best holding midfielder in the league that he's become over the last two seasons. As for Kompany, he played 14 league games in the season before Pep arrived and then 11 and 17 in Pep's two seasons - yes he's a very good player but he's no where near as important to City as he was in his first 7 years. And I didn't say Silva was finished (although I think it's fair to say he had his poorest season the season before Pep arrived) I said it looked like he was on his way out - all the speculation was that he didn't fit into Pep's high intensity game and could be sold but as with KDB, he wasn't suitable to play in attack for Pep so Pep turned him into a central midfielder. This is what the best coaches do - they work with players and get the best out of them in their systems, not want to spend £50m on buying ready made replacements.

Trying to compare Chelsea's situation to City/Utd is nonsense. Chelsea had just won the title 6 months prior to Mourinho getting the sack - the players didn't fall off a cliff overnight. City last won/challenged for the title in 13/14 and the spine of the side that won it were all getting on but not replaced by City, which is why it took 3 seasons and a lot of money before they challenged again. Again, the last excellent City side, prior to last season was the 13/14 side built around Hart, Kompany, Zabaletta, Clichy, Toure, Silva & Aguero - only Silva and Aguero are key members of City's side now and 1 plays a completely new position.

I'm not questioning that Pep has been great for City but everyone looks better when they are in a team that is happy, playing good football and winning. Mistakes don't matter so much, players can take risks and no one is complaining after the game if it cost a goal in a 4 - 1 win. We have spent poorly but I have no idea how anyone in their right mind can think that United:

A) Started at the same point squad quality wise when Mourinho/Pep took over.
B) Don't have budget constraints unlike City
C) Can magically ignore 3 previous seasons of utter mess before Mourinho took over.

Whats the saying "buy cheap, buy twice". Mourinho has clearly been after new defenders and the club has penny pinched on them. Either Mourinho says "no, I don't want them" and he gets nothing or he hopes they come good and he has bought a gem. I wonder how City would be getting on if they hadn't bought an entire new backline and keeper in the past 2 years?

A) Were they in exactly the same position? No but there was no where near the difference in quality that some Utd fans are now trying to claim to cover up the failings of today. Again, if we could rewind time and I started a thread asking Utd fans how many City players they'd swap with their own players, we wouldn't get the same results as we would now.
B) Don't have budget contraints unlike City? You're ignoring the fact that once you include wages (which clubs do include when calculating budgets) City have spent no more than Utd? You do realise that City wanted to sign Fred in January but wouldn't pay the asking price and have gone into this season without cover for Fernandinho because the club wouldn't pay the asking price for Jorginho? Maybe City have budget constraints too.
C) Don't think anybody has ignored that.

Why is it clear that the club has penny pinched? Because they won't pay huge fees on 29 year olds? How many clubs would? Mourinho's pet dog reported that Lindelof was Mourinho's primary target prior to signing him - of course now he's turned out to be garbage he's changed his tune and claiming otherwise. And as I've pointed out before, £30m at the time you signed Bailly was certainly one of the top 5 most expensive CB's at the time, as was £40m on Lindelof when you signed him. Utd can only compete if they have the most expensive players in the world in each position?

 

[The Running Man]

Mourinho's dog has a comparative advantage vs lindleoff - 4 legs vs 2. He is also a better reader of the game and collects the mail in the morning.

So may be he's worth 60 million ?

 

[Maundie]

Mourinho's dog has a comparative advantage vs lindleoff - 4 legs vs 2. He is also a better reader of the game and collects the mail in the morning.

So may be he's worth 60 million ?

That's funny

 

[Combat Fighter]

Jose Mourinho accepts one year suspended prison sentence for tax fraud in Spain.

€1.9m fine.

Nice!

 

[The Running Man]

Jose Mourinho accepts one year suspended prison sentence for tax fraud in Spain.

€1.9m fine.

Nice!

That's just his tax bill which is a fraction of his wages anyway.

 

[FrankJH]

The ingrained quality of the player also makes them capable of changing position at a later stage in their career (like Giggs moving from winger / forward to a CM position before he retired)

Silva hasn't changed that much really, still being used as a creative outlet in a more central position - its his inate skill at the top level that counts for more than any brilliance in coaching. His value is now more in his speed of thought than in the speed of his feet. If the skill isn't there to start with it doesn't matter how good the coaching that's in place.

KDB also hasn't changed that much positionaly, he may be playing slightly further back but his increase in productivity is just as much him maturing at a slightly older age and acclimatising to the league and those players around him for the most part that have been together a number of years.

Martial has never shown any instinct to be a central striker in England despite all the chances he has been given - he may grow in to that role but he was never a full-time option in that position for any manager he has played under at Utd. Even without Ibra, no-one would ever gamble on such an inexperienced player after one season in the EPL to lead such a huge club (even without the change in manager over the summer) - that's completely mental idea. If Ibra hadn't arrived then Utd would have still had to pay out Lukaku size money on someone else (a year earlier than they did).

All transfers are a gamble to one extent or another, no matter who is asking for that player. Pep has put together the majority of City's current squad (there are certain indicators that he agreed to City signing players a year before he arrived) - the Utd squad is a mish mash of 5 different ideas - SAF (when a lot of those still around now were already considered on their last legs), Moyes, LVG, JM and Woodward. Its not surprising they aren't working as effectively as one person's view with an unlimited budget (when majority of Utd' s budget appears to be going into the Glazers pockets instead of onto the field)

E30m transfers where happening regularly that summer (and had for a number of years before that) - however you want to phrase it, still sounds complete **** that Baillly was expensive when he was bought. He wasn't in the slightest. The position he plays is completely irrelevant. The ONLY time its not relevant is with goal scorers - primarily strikers but also the likes of Neymar and a few other wide attackers that go for huge sums because they score hatfuls. Even gk have only this summer started to get expensive (even though imo gk's are jus as worthy of high prices as strikers are, but they have never historically gone for huge fees)


Just laughs @ Utd spending £500m more in wages than City in the last 10 years - yeah in your dreams.

Jorjinho rejected City because he wanted to move with his manager.....City are trying to paint it as they couldn't / wouldn't afford him now hmmmm yeah ok

 

[BaZ87]

Just laughs @ Utd spending £500m more in wages than City in the last 10 years - yeah in your dreams.

Jorjinho rejected City because he wanted to move with his manager.....City are trying to paint it as they couldn't / wouldn't afford him now hmmmm yeah ok

Mourinho and Pep have been City and Utd managers for the past 10 years? News to me.

City have spent approx £85m net more than Utd since Pep & Mourinho arrived and from the last set of accounts (which would have been their first seasons) Utd's wagebill was £20m more (annualised as City's accounts were for a 13 month period). Assuming a similar difference in wage bill for last and this coming season, there's next to no difference in total spend on transfer fees and wages.

And Jorginho didn't reject City and they don't need to paint anything - there was running quotes from Jorginho's agent stating that he wanted to join City all summer but the clubs couldn't reach an agreement on the fee:

Jorginho is a Napoli player. Napoli and City have still not reached an agreement, there is around €10m between the asking price and the offer. Now City are working on a second choice. The player is waiting on Napoli's decision, he still has two years left on his contract but will not renew. We must not be hypocrites, every player would want to go and play in a Guardiola team. Will he be happy to stay at Napoli? Jorginho is a great professional, but this is the opportunity of his life and the life of his family. If he does not go to City he will not be very happy.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/man-city-transfers-jorginho-napoli-14764084

As for the rest of your post, as usual you confuse the life out of me Frank. Silva and KDB, neither or which were central midfielders, can easily change position and play as midfielders because it's not much difference but Martial, who was signed as a striker cannot play as a striker. I'm surprised you've not brought up premier league experience again.

 

[Steedie]

The footage on SSN from this morning showing Pogba and Jose having a frosty exchange has meant that what was being treated as "just rumours in the press" is now clear for every one to see. I'm not body language expert but Jose looked like he really has no time for Pogba

Jose has to go, the situation is getting out of hand now in terms of the toxic effect he's having on the club. He's clearly waiting to be sacked, and the board are clearly waiting for him to resign, which he'll never do

 

[fez]

I don't think the club are waiting for him to resign, I think they are hoping against all odds that things will pick up somehow. Pogba seems like an arrogant ***** but so is Mourinho and only one of them is going to help us win anything of note. Mourinho isn't a modern manager and hasn't changed with the times. He can perhaps take a top team and give them the impetus to win trophies but he is simply rubbish at improving teams through coaching or implementing an attacking style of football.

 

[shipinabottle]

I usually reserve judgement on most pictures of looks of disgust or whatever because you need the context. However it's looks quite clear Pogba's is happy with what he's just done, bouncing about, clapping hands, then Mourinho sticks the knife in. What an absolute **** of a manager/coach.

He needs to go, that little play/show with the fans at the tottenham game was probably part of his plan to drag the club on his side Vs a player, because he believes no player is bigger than the club. Which he's right, but neither is any manager. Jose, please just bloody go already

 

[Robbo]

Yep, was quite surprised to see that footage. There’s no way it’s being misinterpreted. Major fall out.

 

[wedrum]

as funny as it is too watch its not all jose fault, that utd team is pure fodder and once west ham beat them this weekend the **** will hit the fan and i cant wait.
#armchairfan

 

[shipinabottle]

as funny as it is too watch its not all jose fault, that utd team is pure fodder and once west ham beat them this weekend the **** will hit the fan and i cant wait.
#armchairfan

A better manager human being would get more from this squad of players.

New video with audio on sky sports.. looks like he's dishing it out because of an Instagram post where the players are watching the match having a bit of fun... Guess Shaw is getting the axe as well for smiling and laughing...

 

[Calpol]

A better manager human being would get more from this squad of players.

Personally I think this is rubbish. There is something toxic about the attitude of many of the players. They don't want success the same way as previous generation do. They have it all so easy and I can understand why Jose is increasingly frustrated with them. Quite simply the desire of the manager does not seem consistently matched by quite a few of the players. Pogba has once again shown he can be a toxic influence. I'd get rid as I can't see the club progressing with him there. TO suggest Jose doesn't know how to handle players is frankly ridiculous. Fair enough disagree with some of his methods but bad man managers don't have the record he has. The issue is that his methods might be unsustainable in the modern elite level. I'm not his biggest fan but he has a bad situation at United to deal with. Some of it self inflicted but not all.

 

[shipinabottle]

Personally I think this is rubbish. There is something toxic about the attitude of many of the players. They don't want success the same way as previous generation do. They have it all so easy and I can understand why Jose is increasingly frustrated with them. Quite simply the desire of the manager does not seem consistently matched by quite a few of the players. Pogba has once again shown he can be a toxic influence. I'd get rid as I can't see the club progressing with him there. TO suggest Jose doesn't know how to handle players is frankly ridiculous. Fair enough disagree with some of his methods but bad man managers don't have the record he has. The issue is that his methods might be unsustainable in the modern elite level. I'm not his biggest fan but he has a bad situation at United to deal with. Some of it self inflicted but not all.

Jose's record of wrecking players and squads is there for all to see, regardless of the success. He's not a nice person, he's the toxic one. He's been miserable since he joined the club in the majority of his public appearances.

This is a difficult squad to work with, but that doesn't mean he's in the right.

It's bloody clear his tactics are those of a fossil who refuses to change and work in the new reality of football, it's technical and the details matter. You don't put a bus out and expect to win anymore. Just doesn't work that way unfortunately for him.

The players ain't great but he's had three summers now and he's failing miserably.

I honestly believe LVG would have got more out of this squad, and I didn't particularly think he was great but you could see how he was trying to manipulate games.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Personally I think this is rubbish. There is something toxic about the attitude of many of the players. They don't want success the same way as previous generation do. They have it all so easy and I can understand why Jose is increasingly frustrated with them. Quite simply the desire of the manager does not seem consistently matched by quite a few of the players. Pogba has once again shown he can be a toxic influence. I'd get rid as I can't see the club progressing with him there. TO suggest Jose doesn't know how to handle players is frankly ridiculous. Fair enough disagree with some of his methods but bad man managers don't have the record he has. The issue is that his methods might be unsustainable in the modern elite level. I'm not his biggest fan but he has a bad situation at United to deal with. Some of it self inflicted but not all.

lol, yeah, those poor poor players under Fergie only on 120k a week instead of 170k, they were basically starving and thus desperate for success so they could move out of their lowly 12mil mansions and get into comfortable 25mil mansions.

What kind of honest to god delusional nonsense is that? Mourinho has lost pretty much every team after 3-4 years in exactly the same way, with squads that have won everything who then just give up... only to win it again a year later under a different manager?

Mourinho has been a clear and obvious toxic influence at every club he's been, it just takes a while to build up before it explodes and turns to hell.

Again Pogba despite disappointment yesterday turned up ready and hungry to train in a good mood and Mourinho the toxic influence, decided to say something that put everyone in the team in an awkward position and ruining the entire day of training. Mourinho had zero need to do this, this was entirely his doing. He always does this, one of his players was hurt at Chelsea, the ref asked the player if he needed treatment and was told yes, once the trainer is called on it's not a choice for the trainer to come on, the referee has stopped play for the trainer to come on and won't restart till they are done. So Mourinho attacked someone his whole staff liked at the club because she was doing 100% exactly what she was required to do at that point. Mourinho caused a monumental **** storm out of absolutely nothing because that is who he is.

His methods not being sustainable in modern football is such a ridiculous notion, because it assumes he didn't have a massive drop off in his first (edit, not season) spell at Chelsea, wouldn't have happened at Inter where he kept buying old players for huge wages and put Inter into financial trouble with a squad that was about to fall apart, did happen at Real also and then at Chelsea again. It's been a problem since day one, the idea he just hasn't adapted to the 'modern' game is again such a sell out.

As for suggesting JOse doesn't know how to handle players, he's proven it throughout his career, how many stars who were performing great at their previous club did he buy and turn into unhappy players within months? How many top young players did he refuse to give the time of day to which hurt his teams. No it's ridiculous to suggest he hasn't had an issue handling players since day one of his managerial career. When you would attack a doctor for treating a player who said he was injured .... you have a major problem handling people. I can't think of another manager who would have ever caused a **** storm in that exact way over something so completely and utterly absurd.

 

[shipinabottle]

I'd forgotten about the Physio incident, that was pretty disgraceful.

I don't know how anyone can be sympathetic towards him. Especially when he gets paid £15 million+ a year to manage people. If you squared him up with the values of what a leader should be head be bottom of the pile.

Success doesn't give you an entitlement to be a ****.

 

[doodah]

Oh yeah the physio - hhhhhmm she was really nice !

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