The Jose Mourinho Appreciation Thread

[Shamikebab]

I don't think he'll be gone as soon as people think. I'm not sure it will happen before the end of the year. If we're serious about hiring a DoF then I imagine he would be involved in the decision. We could appoint a caretaker like McKenna and Carrick until the end of the season but I'm not sure it'll happen soon unless Jose makes his position completely untenable

 

[fez]

Nah, he’s here until we are completely out of top four contention

 

[Robbo]

If we continue like this he'll be gone fairly soon. It would be insanity to let this continue, we're down in 10th place and getting worse.

So many things have been done wrong, the blame lies with the board too. A total lack of planning and football knowledge has led to this.

Mourinho though has to shoulder a lot of the blame. Since day one he's looked incredibly miserable and like he doesn't really want the job, and as time passes, he only gets worse. Tactically and motivationally he has looked clueless and at times it's been embarrassing.

He's had money to spend, and lots of it. Look at what Klopp has done in a similar time frame. Or Pep. Or now Sarri. He could be doing much better and there are no real excuses you can make for him. Sure, Woodward should have backed him again this summer, but his signings have been total failures so far.

Something needs to be done, soon. All previous plans need to be torn up, and we should be thankful the club is so huge, rich and established that we can ride out these terrible seasons.

What an absolutely dull affair.

 

[Rotty]

Nah, he’s here until we are completely out of top four contention

gone this week then

 

[rubberduck]

The situation is untenable... Mourinho will get sacked it is just a question of when. Unfortunately football has moved on and Mourinho has been left behind, much like Wenger was but I think his demise will be far swifter and less painful. The way Mourinho operates is very much dependent on winning... There is no plan B and the only way he keeps the dressing room on his side is if the team is winning... Once things turn sour there is no turning it around. I don't think any top clubs will be interested in him after he gets sacked again.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

gone this week then

 

[fez]

Do you guys not remember when we had these discussions about LvG? Lots of thing were said like:

"He can't stay after this"
"Rumour is he will be sacked if we lose on X"
"He'll be gone by the end of the week"

None of this was true. Unless things turn seriously nasty he will be here until near the end of the season. I reckon things will turn nasty if we crash out of the CL at the group stages and sit mid-table after a few more games however.

 

[HangTime]

I don't think any top clubs will be interested in him after he gets sacked again.

I guess it depends on what we mean by top clubs, but I could see him getting another decent job (perhaps in Italy or at PSG) as his record over the past 15 years is exceptional. Even at MU he has a win percentage over 60%, take Pep out of the equation and that is as good as anyone, the likes of Klopp and Poch are trailing in his wake.

Most managers get sacked from top clubs if they are not winning so having the ability to handle 'not winning' is of less importance that it perhaps was in years gone by. Take Ranieri for example, seemingly a nice guy who supported his players, was able to turn Leicester into league champions. He then got sacked for not winning, they didn't give him a chance to turn things round.

 

[mmj_uk]

Moyes and LvG were only sacked when top four was mathematically impossible towards the end of the season but imo if the club are set on a new manager they should just do it ASAP and give the new manager half a season and a couple of transfer windows to prepare for next season.

There needs to be more forward planning rather than the "we're unhappy with this manager but we'll wait and see if he can drag us over the line to 4th place before replacing him" mentality.

 

[fez]

Moyes and LvG were only sacked when top four was mathematically impossible towards the end of the season but imo if the club are set on a new manager they should just do it ASAP and give the new manager half a season and a couple of transfer windows to prepare for next season.

There needs to be more forward planning rather than the "we're unhappy with this manager but we'll wait and see if he can drag us over the line to 4th place before replacing him" mentality.

I see where you are coming from but replacing a manager half way through a season with a new manager you hope to keep for the long term has its downsides. They will be taking over a team that is not performing, is perhaps demotivated and you will be expected to change the fortunes of the club without immediately being able to bring in new players or implement a new style of football that you wish to play in the future. If you struggle to turn things around quickly you could shoot yourself in the foot immediately. Lose the players in the half season you get and suddenly you are fighting an uphill battle to regain players respect and motivate them for the next season.

I think the best we can hope for is a placeholder for the remainder of the season with potentially the future manager being sorted out ASAP and a DoF being appointed quickly.

I have no idea what will sort the club out because there are clearly bigger issues than the managers at the moment. We are all over the place on transfers, paying silly wages to average players, missing transfer targets and we have amassed a bunch of players that don't seem to care about the club. There is no core of "United" players to lead by example. The past 3 managers have all failed to impart a sense of style to their teams and all have struggled to improve the players at their disposal. They have all relied on having a bunch of players that make a team that is good enough to beat most teams with a bit of magic from a few players. When that magic never comes or the opposition plays well we look utterly ****.

 

[Robbo]

Do you guys not remember when we had these discussions about LvG? Lots of thing were said like:

"He can't stay after this"
"Rumour is he will be sacked if we lose on X"
"He'll be gone by the end of the week"

None of this was true. Unless things turn seriously nasty he will be here until near the end of the season. I reckon things will turn nasty if we crash out of the CL at the group stages and sit mid-table after a few more games however.

I think this is even worse, we are in freefall at the moment. The odd win against poor sides doesn't change that. I'd hope the board have learned from the Moyes and LvG failures too.

There's more to it as well beyond the media stuff, Mourinho has looked utterly miserable since day one. He's been deliberately difficult in many ways and to me it looks like he regrets taking the job. We shouldn't indulge him any longer. I wanted him as the manager and hoped we'd see some of the old Mourinho, but he's clearly changing for the worse as time goes by.

-

Ducker is reasonably well sourced and published the following this morning:

Zinedine Zidane in pole position to take over from Jose Mourinho with Man Utd staff convinced manager will go

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...e-manchester-united-may-gary-neville-blaming/

 

[HangTime]

I see where you are coming from but replacing a manager half way through a season with a new manager you hope to keep for the long term has its downsides. They will be taking over a team that is not performing, is perhaps demotivated and you will be expected to change the fortunes of the club without immediately being able to bring in new players or implement a new style of football that you wish to play in the future. If you struggle to turn things around quickly you could shoot yourself in the foot immediately. Lose the players in the half season you get and suddenly you are fighting an uphill battle to regain players respect and motivate them for the next season.

I think it depends on the club / predicament; if a club is in a relegation battle then yes the new manager needs to change the fortunes immediately. However at clubs like MU realistically the worst case scenario is they finish in mid-table mediocrity (similar to Chelsea a few seasons ago) so there is an argument that it is best to get the new manager in mid-season as he then basically barring almighty ****-up gets a 'free pass' for this season and can use the time to start assessing the squad, getting his ideas across, identifying targets for the transfer windows etc. Whereas if they come in during the summer they have much less time to sort all that out, or worse some players could have already made their mind up to look for a move by that point.

I accept there is perhaps a risk that they lose some players during the part-season but I also think if Mourinho sticks around you could see e.g. Pogba sorting out his next move, Rashford angling for something to happen etc. It's also arguably better to lose the players in the second half of this season and then have an opportunity to rebuild in the summer, than lose the players at the start of next season and have two seasons messed up instead of one.

 

[fez]

I'm not convinced that Zidane would sort us out honestly. We thought the same of Mourinho when he arrived. Big manager with clout and experience who will bring players to the club and motivate them.

The reality is that we need a manager who will coach the team to play attractive football and improve the players we already have rather than berating them and always thinking that the next signing will turn the team from **** to **** hot. Klopp would have been the man to get but for some reason we never seemed to go after him.

I just feat that Zidane would arrive at United with sky high expectations and quickly realise that this team isn't 1/4 of the team he won 3 CL's with and he won't be able to coach them into the team they could possibly be. Personally I think we are 3-4 players away from being able to challenge for the title but thats on the assumption that we have a manager who can get our current players to fulfil their potential.

Sanchez is a top player in a system that doesn't suit him and hes dropped regularly when he doesn't perform
Same for Martial
Pogba is a hard one because he is a stellar player when he wants to be and a lazy, arrogant **** when he doesn't
Dalot looks like he could be a RB for the foreseeable future. Give him time and coaching
Shaw needs to be our first choice and be supported.
No idea on Fred yet.
DDG is still the best keeper in the league by some distance
Periera is a good player but is never given the chance
Matic needs a better pair of CBs behind him but he is still a good DM.

With 2 top CBs and a proper RW we have a great team on paper. The issue is that be play like a pub team thats never seen each other currently. None of the very best sides rely on a few players doing something amazing to win their games. We need to play like the Cities and Liverpools of the league. As a team. When you play like that, even average players are suddenly playing well and full of confidence. Thats our biggest issue. Mourinho just isn't capable of getting the most out of any player so he needs to have the best squad in the league to achieve anything.

 

[MissChief]

Same old Mourinho. A terrible man manager and such a narcissist too. It's only ever about himself and he seems to find it impossible to even see anything from anyone else's point of view. I wonder if he'll look back on his career and, despite all the success he has had, how he could have had so much more with a bit of give and take with some of his players. Every club he's been at he's rubbed some players up the wrong way or flat out been rude and disrespectful to some. The players at most clubs are pretty tight knit and will often close ranks rather than be complicit in what the manager is doing. The power these days is with the players and they know some short term pain will get the manager sacked. It happened at Chelsea both times and happened at Madrid and Inter too and is happening at united now. Players would rather not have European football to get rid of a Manager they despise.

 

[FrankJH]

I think it depends on the club / predicament; if a club is in a relegation battle then yes the new manager needs to change the fortunes immediately. However at clubs like MU realistically the worst case scenario is they finish in mid-table mediocrity (similar to Chelsea a few seasons ago) so there is an argument that it is best to get the new manager in mid-season as he then basically barring almighty ****-up gets a 'free pass' for this season and can use the time to start assessing the squad, getting his ideas across, identifying targets for the transfer windows etc. Whereas if they come in during the summer they have much less time to sort all that out, or worse some players could have already made their mind up to look for a move by that point.

I accept there is perhaps a risk that they lose some players during the part-season but I also think if Mourinho sticks around you could see e.g. Pogba sorting out his next move, Rashford angling for something to happen etc. It's also arguably better to lose the players in the second half of this season and then have an opportunity to rebuild in the summer, than lose the players at the start of next season and have two seasons messed up instead of one.

There may be a big penalty for not being in the CL as well though - a while ago there were loads of articles that Chevy would pay a lot less sponsorship if Utd didn't qualfy twice for the CL - now the way it was written in majority of articles I read at the time - didn't say explicitly that it was two years in a row (they didn't say either way, whether it was "in a row" or "two years during any time during the length of the deal" so it could be either one.

You may well say Utd are looking unlikely to make it either way, but at least sacking him now would give the incoming manager a decent chance to make top 4 before the end of the season......and he would also get a good idea by Jan who he could sell immediately and who if anyone he could bring in (even if its only one "leader" in defence that would make a massive improvement) .

There are massive problems throughout the club, from the owners all the way down to the inadequate squad. Everyone is to blame for the mess but imo particularly the Glazers & Woodward for being more about the finance and financial aspect (of what they can get out of the club ) rather than being interested in the actual football - after all if the football is actually good quality that will look after the finance anyway, their way doesn't always and in this case definitely hasn't worked.

JM hasn't helped himself in many ways but there was an interesting stat I heard the other day that the glazers have paid far more out to themselves and in financing their takeover than they have in players since that date. Just shows why we haven't grown as much ( the Glazers started building up the marketing side really well, credit to them- but as many clubs have now caught up ....kinda shows how this aspect of the growth has massively slowed since the initial push).

Any manager is going to be a risk - but I guess at least ZZ has decent experience of a club of a similar size, a lot of managers would be daunted by the sheer size and we will still be in the same position 2 years from now. Im not sure whether ZZ would improve the current squad enough (even with one or two additions in Jan) - unqualified success in CL at RM no doubt, but he had an absolute stellar squad there when he arrived. Not including some of the dregs of the overpayed dregs of the PL .

edit - I would get rid of Sanchez straight away, he just isn't cutting it no matter how / where we play him. (incredibly costly no doubt but I don't see any manager getting the 20 goals a season + we should be getting out of him)

Get Martial / Rashford alternating on the left wing - will give them both plenty of minutes and was working a treat for both of them last year . Do need a proper right winger for the other side though (alternating with Periera perhaps, was originally a winger / no 10 so might do this well)

I wouldn't actually mind seeing Delot as a right winger (if we had a better defender behind him of course) , his pace and crossing would be brilliant without concern of whats happening behind him - and at some point we will need to alternate with him anyway

 

[BaZ87]

As badly as Mourinho has done/is doing, he's ultimately just a consequence of the complete lack of direction from the club as a whole. There's no point sacking him if all they're going to do is roll the dice with the next appointment. They need to decide on the way they're going to move forwards and only when the right people become available, then make their change.

 

[Steedie]

As badly as Mourinho has done/is doing, he's ultimately just a consequence of the complete lack of direction from the club as a whole. There's no point sacking him if all they're going to do is roll the dice with the next appointment. They need to decide on the way they're going to move forwards and only when the right people become available, then make their change.

I agree to a certain extent, the board offered him a new deal then refuse to back him in the transfer market. Whether they agree with the signings or not, you can't back someone to an extent that you're rewarding them with a new bigger money deal, then go and stop him making signings, and let's face it, the defenders were signings we absolutely needed.

I'll stop short of saying the next manager needs to be given time to build, as that's effectively what every manager since Ferguson has said they are setting out to do. But we definitely need to make a clear statement with a manager that has a track record of building squads as opposed to short term starting 11's.

But where I disagree is saying he's a consequence of the boards lack of direction. I think with Mourinho, it's more to do with him being an out of date, toxic manager that will try and blame anyone but himself, which makes the dressing room feel like crap

 

[fez]

I agree to a certain extent, the board offered him a new deal then refuse to back him in the transfer market. Whether they agree with the signings or not, you can't back someone to an extent that you're rewarding them with a new bigger money deal, then go and stop him making signings, and let's face it, the defenders were signings we absolutely needed.

He got us second in the league last season (albeit a distant second) so the hope would be that he kicked on from there signings or not. You shouldn't go from second to mid-table even if you sign no-one.

I'll stop short of saying the next manager needs to be given time to build, as that's effectively what every manager since Ferguson has said they are setting out to do. But we definitely need to make a clear statement with a manager that has a track record of building squads as opposed to short term starting 11's.

Each manager has been given time. At the top level, time is being allowed to spend a few years playing good football, making progress each season but not winning anything. Its not scraping to the odd trophy playing awful football, spending huge amounts and regressing half your players all whilst dragging the clubs name through the mud.

Moyes was clearly not cut out for a big club from the start and was playing awful football. No area of his management held up to scrutiny.

LvG implemented his vision of dominating possession but played dull football that was never going to be any more than he had shown us and wasn't ever going to result in trophies. Bit of a nutter to boot.

Mourinho has shown glimmers of hope in his 2+ years. Occasionally we will play good football and take teams apart but thats very rare. Most of the time its dire, negative and dour football that grinds out results. Once the results slip Mourinho does what he does and turns everyone against him and suddenly those ground out results are losses.

If you want to see an example of a manager given time to build a team you can look at Liverpool. Klopp had them playing some great football from early on in his tenure but results were patchy and their results reflected that. Over a few years he signed the players he wanted and coached them to play the football he wanted and look where they are now. The huge huge difference is that Liverpool were great but frustrating the whole time pretty much. There was clear improvement each season and a clear identity to their football.

As badly as Mourinho has done/is doing, he's ultimately just a consequence of the complete lack of direction from the club as a whole. There's no point sacking him if all they're going to do is roll the dice with the next appointment. They need to decide on the way they're going to move forwards and only when the right people become available, then make their change.

This is pretty much what we need to do. Remove Woodward from anything football related, get a DoF in and find a manager who will play the kind of football we want to see. I have no idea how we haven't done this already. Woodward has monetised every facet of the club despite the football side of the club being awful so having a manager who plays good football but doesn't win trophies for a few years isn't going to affect the bottom line. Eventually United will lose their relevance and as a result their worth to sponsors. When that happens we will have a badly run club from top to bottom without the power to spend our way out of it.

The thing that baffles me most is that we are spending huge sums in completely the wrong way. It's not like we are penny pinching on our journey to mediocrity. Literally every successful club in Europe has a different model to us yet we don't seem to make the required changes.

 

[FrankJH]

He got us second in the league last season (albeit a distant second) so the hope would be that he kicked on from there signings or not. You shouldn't go from second to mid-table even if you sign no-one..

You will undoubtedly go down several places for several reasons in the current EPL

1) Look at how close 2nd -6th was last season - a youngster who has no experience, a decent midfielder with no league experience (most players take time to adjust to the EPL) and a backup gk are not really going to improve the 2nd on their own (straight away)

2) When Liverpool have effectively got the benefits of nigh on £300m this season alone (albeit from a player who arrived in Jan and another they purchased last summer but went back out on loan immediately) , Chelsea who have made one of the best individual signings in Jorginho , Arsenal who have made decentish signings - but probably best signing of the lot is on the touchline, and Spurs who may not have signed anyone but its also difficult to see how they could improve that 1st XI anyway - and compare that to a totally misfiring Sanchez, Lukaku who is not hitting the target as often as last season (and already needed a reliable no 2 anyway) plus a central defence that was never going to be as good as last season

A less than motivated squad doesn't help admittedly but the closeness of majority of EPL games nowadays its VERY easy to see how a team with little investment is going to drop rapidly (Spurs have a very decent squad already so will probably get away with it for one year)

It seems a VERY long time ago now that there were always 10 points + between the top four and the rest


There is a huge suggestion from elsewhere that JM has actually signed very few of the players that have come in while he has been manager, which probably doesn't help him inparticular - certainly Pogba and Sanchez were not his signings but the boards , and its easy to see why Pogba and JM have got on each others backs given how differently each other wants him to play most of the time. Of course JM should have found a better way to work with Pogba, but two massive egos with such differing styles was always going to end in fireworks.

 

[fez]

My question to you Frank is how do we get consistently outplayed by teams that have spent less than the Pogba money alone on their squads. Its not like we are playing well and missing a host of chances. Its not like we are outplaying 90% of the teams we play. I can't think of a single game this season where we have played better than the opposition. If young boys had a decent striker we would have lost our first CL game. They outworked, outplayed and outclassed us completely.

I agree that the quality of the PL has been steadily increasing over the past 5 years but somehow Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, City and Arsenal all manage to beat the smaller teams and even when they don't they almost always play better than them.