The Last of US II Spoiler and story discussion thread.

[Warbie]

I've watched it already, I don't think its 'intelligent, unbiased and well thought out'

Which bits don't you agree with? I played the game and it resonates with and sums up well my experience.

No, I would not have been blown away, for me its a badly written revenge story with characters that act completely opposite to how they've already been established, you may think that's storytelling at its finest, I have a different opinion.

That's kind of my point. It's too late now. You can't know. Spoilers and confirmation bias won't let you.

That's how you've been conditioned throughout the game to feel. From making Ellie and the rest of the 'good' guys thoroughly unlikeable to the Abbey sections being framed as way cooler and exciting (better weapons, better level design etc). It's touched upon from the critical drinker video I posted above, but an example of framing the narrative so Ellie is seen as bad would be the death of the pregnant chick at her hands. Every single time she is 'onscreen' her pregnancy is a major factor, from the character interaction - omg you're pregnant - to her clothing highlighting this fact. Then when its time for her to die, it's hidden for the 1st time in-game so you can have a cheap moment of a prenant woman dying at Ellies' hand. Is that a well-written death? No, its cheap and bad storytelling with the narrative forced so you are subconsciously adding yet another bad deed done at the hands of Ellie as you are supposed to empathise with Abbey over Ellie.

These are clearly not your words/thoughts. Regardless, I disagree. TLoU2 does a great job of exploring where revenge can take someone. In the search for Abby, Ellie does terrible things. It's a gradual decline and done very well. Of course the game uses techniques to portray this. Torturing someone to death with a metal bar is never going to be rainbows and kisses.

No idea what you're getting at with Abby's cooler weapons. Whoever made that point is grasping at straws and arguably just wrong. I guess she does get the flamethrower later. That was cool.

The pregnancy death never felt cheap or hidden to me. Just damn brutal.

Being forced to do something within a video game and then being told you are a bad person for doing it isn't clever storytelling. Its trash tier.

We may agree here to some extent. Possibly not about the same thing (and not if you're literally talking about killing dogs. The Angry Joe review really is *****). I touched on it earlier in this thread. There's a bit in the game where you have to click on square to progress with Ellie torturing someone. It's one of my few gripes, was in a cutscene and was unnecessary. Likewise the final showdown with Abby. They should have played through without player input and felt contrived. Otherwise, the way the story is delivered in TLoU2 is so far ahead of any other video game that to describe it as trash tier is plain dumb. Note - there's a difference between not liking a story and how well it is written/portrayed.

I'd be interested in why you think its a well-written story.

For the reasons mentioned previously. Boiled down - the game took me from hating a character, to starting to relate to them, to eventually finding understanding and forgiveness (let's face it - Joel killed her Dad and doomed countless people to a horrible death. We just never dwelled on it or saw the repercussions before). All while watching a character I love slip down a dark path and feeling helpless in stopping it. Mature themes tackled superbly. As jarring as it was controlling Abby for the first time after Joel's death, I found it almost as jarring going back to Ellie towards the end. By then I was firmly on Abby's side and wanted Ellie put down. She was just too damn damaged and pyscho. And then it touches on Ellie's mental health issues (the farm/baby part of the game is great) and the lines keep blurring. By the end I genuinely felt for them both and just wanted them to find some peace. If you want to argue that's conditioning, then every book and movie i've ever loved is also conditioning.

The Girlfriend Review sums it up better and really is spot on.

 

[Newbie007]

We may agree here to some extent. Possibly not about the same thing (and not if you're literally talking about killing dogs. The Angry Joe review really is *****). I touched on it earlier in this thread. There's a bit in the game where you have to click on square to progress with Ellie torturing someone. It's one of my few gripes, was in a cutscene and was unnecessary. Likewise the final showdown with Abby. They should have played through without player input and felt contrived. Otherwise, the way the story is delivered in TLoU2 is so far ahead of any other video game that to describe it as trash tier is plain dumb. Note - there's a difference between not liking a story and how well it is written/portrayed.

Good storytelling would have a counter to the option to kill the dog or the torture scene to progress the story and still get to where they want the story to be. Being forced to do something inhuman by the story designers and then be told you are a bad person because you've been forced to do said act isn't what I consider emotive, high benchmark storytelling.

I'd sort of already covered this is the Red Dead 2 comparison, there are certain elements you can't escape but you can adjust how Arthur behaves, it won't give a different overall ending but it will give a different version of it depending on the actions you've chosen - that's good storytelling.

TLoU2 doesn't give you any player choice outside of maybe not murdering a few inconsequential npc's (maybe part 3 can concentrate on their story eh)

No idea what you're getting at with Abby's cooler weapons. Whoever made that point is grasping at straws and arguably just wrong. I guess she does get the flamethrower later. That was cool.

The subconscious conditioning to empathise more with the abbey character, outside of any moral or ethical decisions - what are people going to find more enjoyable to play the character with 'standard' weapons, less fun overall design implementations - or the character with the bfg, the character that has had more thought and time go into their design?

 

[ivrytwr3]

Why do you keep comparing this to Red Dead? In my opinion Red Dead sucks and i will never play it - but i know that there are many that will disagree, fair enough!

I also don't want multiple endings or choices in Last of Us, if i want that i will play Red Dead (which i won't) or a Telltale game (which i have).

 

[msmalls74]

The Nora "torture" scene has fantastic storytelling if you pick up on what happened. Ellie just wanted the info, nora decided to push Ellie by what and how she said. You never saw Ellie torture nora the beating was implied when you see her bloodied hands and her reaction afterwards. The way nora pretends to fake empathy with Ellie by saying she still hears Joel's screams at night, then to flip it back at her by saying something like he deserved it. Making Ellie in here unstable state to go full psycho on her.
I've watched several streamers play this game since I completed it, and all off them has pretty much acted the way I did with the Abby switch, didn't like her at first but thought OK let's see what her problem was. Then as you spend more time with her you find out about the group and the WLF are not some group off barbarians, you see that her and Owen was an item at some point and that Mel was not particularly happy with what happened with Joel. Eventually, they as I did got to like Abby and especially her relationship with Lev. At the final fight between Abby and Ellie (reminded me of the final mgs4 fight) at the end so many hesitated to press the square button as even though they was team Ellie they did not want to kill Abby and was happy she didn't. To me, this proves the writing and storytelling works, but not every one has the emotional intelligence for it to work. That's not a slight on those people who don't emphasise with the characters, as its that is the story ND wanted to tell.

 

[Warbie]

Good storytelling would have a counter to the option to kill the dog or the torture scene to progress the story and still get to where they want the story to be. Being forced to do something inhuman by the story designers and then be told you are a bad person because you've been forced to do said act isn't what I consider emotive, high benchmark storytelling.

I'd sort of already covered this is the Red Dead 2 comparison, there are certain elements you can't escape but you can adjust how Arthur behaves, it won't give a different overall ending but it will give a different version of it depending on the actions you've chosen - that's good storytelling.

TLoU2 doesn't give you any player choice outside of maybe not murdering a few inconsequential npc's (maybe part 3 can concentrate on their story eh)

You're not comparing like for like. You might as well compare TLoU to the Witcher, which would be equally as poor a comparison. Naughty Dog made the decision to sacrifice player choice to deliver a story precisely the way they want. I shouldn't have to explain this. It's not a case of there being one best way to deliver a video game story and there's obvious pros and cons to the different methods out there. The issue here is you don't like what other people have told you about the story. And it seems you are talking about killing dogs, of which there are a fair few in the game. The WLF breed killer attack dogs to hunt Scars - you see the breeding pens during the game. And when they attack you, they rip your face off in gameplay (literally, it's brutal!). There's nothing inhumane here. When killer dogs come at you, you defend yourself. You may as well complain about killing humans that attack you.

In a previous post you said you like Baldur's Gate 2 - one of my all time faves. Same with the original, Planescape, Icewind, the Fallouts old and new. You name it, we've probably played the same stuff. Story telling in video games is totally my jam and TLoU2 is the best i've experienced. The reason for this is how it's delivered through gameplay that merges seemlessly in and out of cutscenes (name another game that does this). It's so much more effective and believable than walking up to an npc and instigating a conversation/cutscene. Now of course, this would be crazy difficult with a game the scope of something like RDR. Perhaps one day. It would be amazing.

The subconscious conditioning to empathise more with the abbey character, outside of any moral or ethical decisions - what are people going to find more enjoyable to play the character with 'standard' weapons, less fun overall design implementations - or the character with the bfg, the character that has had more thought and time go into their design?

This is what makes it obvious you're adopting someone else's opinion here man. Ellie has the sniper rifle - the deadliest gun in the game. Proximity mines, molotovs. Joel's cool revolver. The silenced smg. The better shotgun. Explosive arrows. Ellie has the best, most powerful and diverse arsenal. I did have a soft spot for Abby's hunting pistol, though. Regardless, this is such a non point it's crazy we're discussing it.

 

[Mobius 1]

Yup. Ellie had the better weapons.

suggest he go play the game or something to have any sort of valid or credible opinion.

 

[msmalls74]

Yup. Ellie had the better weapons.

suggest he go play the game or something to have any sort of valid or credible opinion.

I did like the flamethrower that Abby gets, in the hospital I had a few Aliens flashbacks lol. Liked Abbys crossbow, used it loads on the island.

 

[Mobius 1]

I did like the flamethrower that Abby gets, in the hospital I had a few Aliens flashbacks lol. Liked Abbys crossbow, used it loads on the island.

Yeah I forgot about the flamethrower ! Cooking clickers is always good fun while I LOVED the crossbow.. I found the range lacking didn’t feel it was as good as the bow. Which is a shame because it was great fun

 

[Warbie]

I did like the flamethrower that Abby gets, in the hospital I had a few Aliens flashbacks lol. Liked Abbys crossbow, used it loads on the island.

Yeah, that whole area was great. The guys that came out the spore formations on the walls nearly made me soil myself! Popping them once in the head with a silenced pistol is one of the most satisfying things in gaming The crossbow was indeed good.

 

[Shamikebab]

Just block the troll guys. Anyone making arguments about a game they've never even played can be safely ignored.

 

[Narj]

Nvm

 

[Vinno]

"Hey guys, let's make the first 15 hours of the game worse than we could. No no no wait - hear me out. If we give Ellie the worse weapons then people won't enjoy playing as her - we then give Abby the really good weapons so that people will love her, do you see where I'm going? Good. Oh and could you try to make the levels for Ellie really bad too? We really want to hammer home just how awful she is, amazing thanks."- Neil Druckmann


...apparently.

 

[omnomnom]

"Hey guys, let's make the first 15 hours of the game worse than we could. No no no wait - hear me out. If we give Ellie the worse weapons then people won't enjoy playing as her - we then give Abby the really good weapons so that people will love her, do you see where I'm going? Good. Oh and could you try to make the levels for Ellie really bad too? We really want to hammer home just how awful she is, amazing thanks."- Neil Druckmann


...apparently.

Yea thats just nonsense tho. Ellie literally has a melee weapon at all time and a rifle with a scope. Then if i remember rightly shes goes all nuts with an mp5 type weapon.

It really isnt as deep as people think.

 

[mid_gen]

We may agree here to some extent. Possibly not about the same thing (and not if you're literally talking about killing dogs. The Angry Joe review really is *****). I touched on it earlier in this thread. There's a bit in the game where you have to click on square to progress with Ellie torturing someone. It's one of my few gripes, was in a cutscene and was unnecessary. Likewise the final showdown with Abby. They should have played through without player input and felt contrived.

That scene is an obvious hark back to the pivotal scene in TLOU, and plays out the same way. When Joel gets to the operating theatre and confronts the doctor (Abby's dad), you are in full control of Joel, but there is only one button you can press, the square 'murder' button, which is where you set in motion the cycle of violence that is the sequel. It's a deliberate decision to put the actual act of the protagonist going over this mental tipping point, rather than letting you just be a passenger.

 

[Warbie]

That scene is an obvious hark back to the pivotal scene in TLOU, and plays out the same way. When Joel gets to the operating theatre and confronts the doctor (Abby's dad), you are in full control of Joel, but there is only one button you can press, the square 'murder' button, which is where you set in motion the cycle of violence that is the sequel. It's a deliberate decision to put the actual act of the protagonist going over this mental tipping point, rather than letting you just be a passenger.

I get that man. We make the call and live with the consequences. The difference is TLoU made me care for Ellie and despite it being the wrong call, I wanted her saved. It's great looking back. So invested in the main characters that you're willingly complicit. With the torutre scene in TLoU2 every part of me was screaming don't do it. It's the wrong path, there's no coming back. The impact was the opposite. It's tricky to decide whether this was a bad move on a design front or something that I just didn't like on a personal level - and where the line blurs between the two. Going off track a little - I firmly believe the vast majority of the negavitive reactions to TLoU2 exist simply becase people didn't like Joel dying. It's masked with all kinds of justifications. Overly complex plot/timeline. Bad writing, woke leanings yada yada. Really, people just don't like that Joel died.

 

[MikeTheNative]

You can disagree with the path a character takes/wanted them to go down a different route but I don't think it's a valid criticism of the game. It's not bad just because something happened you didn't want to.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I do find it ironic that the point of the story is revenge for Joel taken too far she loses everything else she holds dear and now neckbeards are taking their revenge for joel dying too far by sending people death threats.

 

[msmalls74]

You can disagree with the path a character takes/wanted them to go down a different route but I don't think it's a valid criticism of the game. It's not bad just because something happened you didn't want to.

I think a lot of the people not liking the story with regards to Joel, wanted Dina to be killed and Joel helping Ellie and die in a heroic blaze of glory at the end, obviously not realizing he was never what i call heroic more like selfish. I love the fact that people are uncomfortable doing certain things, i think that is the point, if the story/writing works for you, you don't really want to kill Ellie in the Theatre or Kill Abby on the beach.

 

[Warbie]

You can disagree with the path a character takes/wanted them to go down a different route but I don't think it's a valid criticism of the game. It's not bad just because something happened you didn't want to.

What about asking the player to kill Joel with a golf club as Abby? There's things the player shouldn't be asked to do.

 

[MikeTheNative]

What about asking the player to kill Joel with a golf club as Abby? There's things the player shouldn't be asked to do.

I would say that's a gameplay decision not a story decision which is what I was talking about. However though there's no right or wrong answer, just a manner of opinion. The game is brutal, it's on the verge sometimes for me but that doesn't make it a bad game. If your feeling bad about it, that's the whole point of it.