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Trusty said:
Quite easily explained. RVP.
Scored a shed load of goals for Fergie, won you the title basically, you wouldn't have won it without him. Or do you think you would?
RVP was injured the following year, he was unavailable for Moyes.

You take Lukaku out of your side now, where would you be?
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We didn't have Lukaku last season and we did fine.
We didn't have Van Persie the season before he signed and came within seconds of winning the title. Just as we won titles without Ronaldo after he left and Cantona after he left and Van Nisterooy after he left and every other player we apparently "relied" on down the years.

If Van Persie was so important why was one of Moyes first acts upon taking over to call him the reserve striker for Rooney I wonder?
 
Literally, what are you talking about? you came 6th last season in the league. You had 4 more points than Moyes's season. You lads suspend critical thinking, just so you can be right.

You don't win league titles without a 20+ goal scorer, it's just a fact. You didn't have one last season, hence being 6th, you had one in Fergie's last year, you didn't have one when Moyes took over.
 
Trusty said:
Literally, what are you talking about? you came 6th last season in the league. You had 4 more points than Moyes's season. You lads suspend critical thinking, just so you can be right.

You don't win league titles without a 20+ goal scorer, it's just a fact. You didn't have one last season, hence being 6th, you had one in Fergie's last year, you didn't have one when Moyes took over.
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How many goals did Ibrahimovic score last season? How many trophies did we win and did we qualify for the CL, did we got 3/4 of the seao?

This is all smoke and mirrors to the main point of David Moyes however.

You cannot have it both ways.

If Van Perise was the reason that we won the title with such a terrible squad then Moyes made a grave misjudgement in his immediate belittling of him and suggesting he was a squad player whilst courting Wayne Rooney and if he wasn't the main reason then your point is moot.

However I say again, you are talking about a 20 goal striker being the difference between winning the title and not. We are talking about going from Champions to 7th place. From beating most teams to losing to WBA and Sunderland. Had we come 2nd I would 100% agree, had we been competitive I would 100% agree, had we been playing decent football I would 100% agree but none of those things were happening under that manager.
 
We're in more competitions than just the league. It was clear we prioritised elsewhere to win trophies.

Also we've won the league several times before without a 20+ goalscorer so that is rubbish.

Moyes had 4 strikers, if he didn't think 3 of them were any good then why didn't he buy and sell?
 
Like Mata yeah, what position did he play against Southampton?

It's not that I'm such a big fan of Moyes, it's more the fact I empathise with what happened, worked his whole life for a chance like that and it was destroyed by ignorant fans.
It's much better to punch through our ego's, it's better in the long run.
 
Same position he's played the whole season I presume, though I was away this weekend so I didn't see it.

As I said though, you keep thinking position and role are the same thing. Rashford starts nearly every game on the left, doesn't mean he's playing as a winger.

Oh I see, it was the ignorant fans that meant Moyes failed, now it's wonderfully clear. You should work for his PR team.
 
Postion and role are the same thing? Ok. Perhaps you can enlighten me on the pro's and con's when determining the significant message to give to players when you do tactical training for a match?
 
Come on, show me a team that would do well without their main striker. Chelsea wouldn't have won the league without Costa, City without Aguero, Tottenham wouldn't be anywhere near where they are without Kane.

Thats not how football works though. You don't say "Kane scored 30 goals last season so without him they would have lost 20 points and finished 8th". For all we know, without Kane another striker makes Tottenham a better side and another player scores 40 goals.
 
Trusty said:
Like Mata yeah, what position did he play against Southampton?

It's not that I'm such a big fan of Moyes, it's more the fact I empathise with what happened, worked his whole life for a chance like that and it was destroyed by ignorant fans.
It's much better to punch through our ego's, it's better in the long run.
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I empathise too. He was given a job too big for him to handle. Thats a shame for him that he blew it.

Now its the fault of ignorant fans
A couple of hours ago it was RVP being injured
Before that it was a poor squad
Before that it was not having time to bring in his own players

There are a million excuses and none of them are true. Had he been decent in any aspect of the role he would have got an easier ride. The expectation was never there for him to win the title, the fans knew it was going to be a shock to the system to change from Ferguson, all that he had to do was keep it ticking over - to manage the change if you will. Either that or actually make changes which would at least have hinted at a vision.

Had he kept the same team in the top 4 he would have kept the job. Had he made radical changes and been 7th but with a plan he would have kept the job. Had we been playing good football in any circumstance he would have got an easier ride. Had he had half decent PR he would have got an easier ride. Had he shown ANY of those things it could have been different and he would have been afforded time.

What manager in football gets a team thats just won the league, a massive chequebook and only the expectation to make top 4 and/or to play some good football or to manage a change?

Fans were skeptical about the appointment because many didn't think he was up to the job and it wasn't right to put an inexperienced man (in the terms of the requirement for the job, not in football itself) in after Fergie. David Moyes did not one single thing in the job to suggest any of those fans were wrong, not one thing.
 
Trusty, you've demonstrated over the years you won't listen to the opinions of others about Moyes. I think it's disrespectful to suggest that the fans who watched every match and listened to every word he said don't know what they're talking about. Start to finish he was a lost cause for many reasons. Your own opinion is very clear.

I think we're starting to go around in circles now, and this is a thread for general Manchester United club stuff, not more endless debate about why Moyes was a failure.
 
The fact that the UTD team has been completely overhauled to get to position of competitiveness again should tell you everything lads.
 
Trusty said:
The fact that the UTD team has been completely overhauled to get to position of competitiveness again should tell you everything lads.
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Thats like saying my house needed renovation in 2013 and the evidence to confirm it is the fact that I had to rebuild it in 2016 because it was hit by an earthquake.

No one has argued that the squad hasn't been rebuilt over the course of three managers. New managers make changes (except Moyes apparently) and managers with big chequebooks doubly so. Managers put their own stamp on their team whether it needs it or not.

However what you continually fail to grasp is that we aren't talking about 2017 we are talking about what Moyes took over and destroyed in 2013, thats a four MONTH period not a four YEAR period.

The Man Utd squad that won the title in May 2013 did not need a complete overhaul in order to be vaguely competitive, or at least better that a 7th place side by August 2013. It did nt need an overhaul to go from being 11 points clear to being unable to beat WBA, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke, Cardiff. The buck rightly stopped with Moyes and no amount of spin changes that.
 
Shall we have a look at the current City squad vs the one that was there in 2013 when they won the league. I was going to write a list of players that have left since then from their rough first XI but its easier to name those still there.

Kompany
Navas
Aguero
Silva
Fernandinho
Toure

Thats out of 29 players and Navas and Toure aren't exactly first choice these days.

Out of uniteds players we still have

DDG
Smalling
Jones
Juan Mata
Young
Valencia
Fellaini
Carrick
Lingard

So who has had the bigger overhaul since then? I assume City have had a bad few years as well by your wisdom?
 
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Thats like saying my house needed renovation in 2013 and the evidence to confirm it is the fact that I had to rebuild it in 2016 because it was hit by an earthquake.

No one has argued that the squad hasn't been rebuilt over the course of three managers. New managers make changes (except Moyes apparently) and managers with big chequebooks doubly so. Managers put their own stamp on their team whether it needs it or not.

However what you continually fail to grasp is that we aren't talking about 2017 we are talking about what Moyes took over and destroyed in 2013, thats a four MONTH period not a four YEAR period.

The Man Utd squad that won the title in May 2013 did not need a complete overhaul in order to be vaguely competitive, or at least better that a 7th place side by August 2013. It did nt need an overhaul to go from being 11 points clear to being unable to beat WBA, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke, Cardiff. The buck rightly stopped with Moyes and no amount of spin changes that.
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Do you think Mourinho would have challenged for the league back then?
fez said:
Shall we have a look at the current City squad vs the one that was there in 2013 when they won the league. I was going to write a list of players that have left since then from their rough first XI but its easier to name those still there.

Kompany
Navas
Aguero
Silva
Fernandinho
Toure

Thats out of 29 players and Navas and Toure aren't exactly first choice these days.

Out of uniteds players we still have

DDG
Smalling
Jones
Juan Mata
Young
Valencia
Fellaini
Carrick
Lingard

So who has had the bigger overhaul since then? I assume City have had a bad few years as well by your wisdom?
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Yea well done, they have as well. What about Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Everton. All the teams have obviously got to replace players every summer, point is UTD's 2013 had a winning squad with 5 players over 30 and a injured 20 goal striker, they haven't been competitive in the league for years, why? because you hadn't the right players, only now since buying Lukaku, Matic, Pogba, Bailly, Mhki & Martial.
Also Fez, I shouldn't have to tell you this, you're meant to be the UTD supporter but I don't think Lingard was around back then. It's funny how you use two players that Moyes signed to prove your point, but if you take out those 2 players, and Lingard, your left with Carrick, DDG, Smalling, Jones, Young, Valencia. Now compare them to City. DDG was what? 19? Same with Smalling and Jones, absolute youngsters. Now look at the City team, a spine through the middle of quality.

Errm, so which squad is better then? Todays squad or 2013/2014 squad? Would you prefer RVP back over Lukaku? Would you prefer Carrick back over Pogba? What about Valencia on the wing instead of Martial or Mhki?
 
Trusty said:
Do you think Mourinho would have challenged for the league back then?
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He would have kept us in the top 4 yes I believe so, which was the aim. Its impossible to say but I think he would have got far more right that Moyes did. I believe he would have managed to keep a team that were good enough to win the league roughly round the right end of the table a few short months later. And most importantly I believe he would have had a plan laid out going forward.

Mourinho was the absolute example of a manager who had all the qualities required to walk into the United job after Ferguson and not be overawed and make it work.
 
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Trusty said:
Errm, so which squad is better then? Todays squad or 2013/2014 squad? Would you prefer RVP back over Lukaku? Would you prefer Carrick back over Pogba? What about Valencia on the wing instead of Martial or Mhki?
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You are muddying the waters yet again for no reason. What the 2017 team is like compared to 2013 doesn't matter. The 2013 team was good enough to beat the other 2013 teams which is the general requirement for being Champions. That same team should still have been good enough to be competitive 3 months later. Whether its better than a team four years later is entirely a moot point.
 
Of course you compare squads, what are you on about? This current squad is considerably stronger than the squad in 2013. Why do you keep forgetting things like RVP being the reason you won that title, had he not signed for you, you wouldn't have won it. It needed an overhaul, hence why there are literally no senior players left apart from Valencia & Carrick, and he's even a sub atm. You have 1 senior player from 2013, just one, Valencia. I'd hazard a guess that's the worst from all the big clubs, only 1 senior player in the team at the moment. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool & City will all have a selection of core players that have been playing for the last 3/4 years in the 1st team squad.
 
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Just leave it guys, this is going in circles and some people just can't be reasoned with. They'll continue changing their argument each time their proven wrong until a mod tells them to stop (which one already has done but he just ignored him)
 
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