The Militaria Thread: Collecting and Identification

Soldato
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The Militaria Thread: Pointy Stuff and Shooty Stuff

Hello chaps!

Being the manliest of men, here and there, bits and pieces of militaria, both modern and antique, can be found floating around our board, so I thought it'd be a dash good show if it was all collected into one handy package. So, in this thread, please post:

  • Any items of noteworthy militaria you come across on your travels.
  • Details of your collections, if you have any.
  • Replicas, swords, ancient weapons, bombs, bullets, tanks - anything welcome.
  • Items you've found or inherited that you would like help identifying.

You get the idea! I have a small but growing collection of militaria dating from 1822 onwards: some edged weaponry, bullets, kit. Why collect this stuff? If you love history there is nothing - nothing - that comes close to owning, looking after and researching real items. Read all the books you want, watch all the TV shows you like; it's only when you pick up this stuff and turn it over in your hands that you can be transported back in time and, to some extent, understand what people had to endure. Secondly, money is a factor. They aren't making any more of this stuff and the price is rising steadily as the items in circulation slowly dwindle. I've seen items double in price in the last few years alone, and I know of people who consider their collections to be their pensions.

So, to kick off, here’s my M1891/30 Mosin Nagant.

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This was the main rifle used by the Russian infantry during the Second World War. This particular piece is dated 1936 and has been well used (with the date, it is enough to make me think it was used in anger). It’s covered with little markings and stamps – the meanings of most of which the Russians still haven’t released to us, but I can tell that it was made at the Ishevsk Armoury. It’s a long rifle, and heavy too – I’d hate to have to carry it around for extended periods. It must also have been near suicide to use it in the desperate house-to-house, floor-to-floor fighting of Stalingrad, and so on: you simply can’t wield it at all in close confines. This gun was replaced by the AK47, in the main.

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This particular rifle is deactivated to the standards set out in UK law. The bolt’s action works nicely, it can be cocked and it can be fully stripped, but the barrel and chamber are welded closed and the bolt head is cut. You only need to be 18 years old or over to own it.

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This is what it used to fire: 7.62x54r. As you can see, the cartridges were inserted into a five-round charger clip (stripper clip if you’re American), to make for faster reloading.

The bayonet is cruciform in shape and flat at the tip. It can be used to unscrew the two screws needed to field strip the whole rifle – Soviet simplicity at work!

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Any questions are welcome. I'll post other bits and bobs as the thread gets going, along with their history. Does anyone else have anything to post?
 
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Subscribed.

Where did you get the Mosin and how much did you pay?

There are lots of dealers online with all kinds of stuff, from medals to tanks! I think I paid £175 for my Mosin, which was a pretty good price. The vendor was Jaybe Militaria down in Horsham.

Have you seen the show Combat Dealers on Quest channel? Mainly about military vehicle restoration and the "star" thinks he is Ray Winstone.

I've seen one episode. It was fun, but very American in its editing.

Edorf can we have some links to sites (info/buying) that are useful to collectors?

Sure! What kinds of things are you interested in?
 
True collectors would be horrified, but most of the US Infantry kit I had for WW2 Living History is original and pretty good condition... and there I was, rolling around in the mud with it!!

It's all in storage, as I've sort-of given the hobby up, though.

Blimey! Would love to see it. :)

Just wondering where you would start looking for Napoleonic weapons/memorabilia?

There's plenty of that in the myriad online dealers but it's all much more expensive than more recent stuff. If you're after weaponry, a good condition Brown Bess or a Baker Rifle (my all-time favourite piece) are many thousands of pounds. Replicas can be had from a couple of hundred pounds upwards.

The main swords of the time are all iconic. The 1796 patterns of heavy cavalry sabre (the fictional Richard Sharpe's blade), light cavalry sabre, infantry officer's spadroon (rather elegant, but useless) are more obtainable, but they are still hundreds of pounds.
 
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The police gun club has a Mosin Nagant. It is a beast to fire and leaves lovely bruising but I'm told it is utterly reliable and put many a Nazi into an early grave during WW2.

I have no doubts about that: it's a very robust, simple and extremely cheap to manufacture firearm - exactly what the Soviets needed when equipping their huge, often uneducated, hastily-assembled conscript army during WWII. Despite all that, it was still accurate and I've read accounts of German snipers swapping their 98k for Mosins where convenient.
 
Holy moly. I recognise them both - fantastic stuff! Do you know what they are?

Edrof, I've got an old WWI dog tag I think. My wife was sorting through her grandmother's bits after she died. She found quite a lot of things. Some stuff dating back to the Boer war. Also, a very interesting piece of cloth with a letter scribbled hastily on it talking about going to a place in south Africa and fighting. Can't remember all the details now but quite poignant.

I'd love to see them if you have any pics floating about. :)

I have an old indian matchlock its 6ft long and must have been a nightmare to fire.

Genuine? Must be worth quite a bit by now.
 
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Hi chaps! Thought I’d post another item for your goodly perusal. This is something I added to the purchases thread a while back, but I can give more detail about it here.

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This is a genuine 1845 Pattern British infantry officer's sabre. This style of hilt was brought into service in 1822 (for context, the Battle of Waterloo was 1815) with a pipeback blade that was deemed a bit rubbish so, in 1845, they swapped the blade for this fullered type as designed by Wilkinson (the same company that now makes fancy razors). This Pattern saw real action in various wars around the world and was used in anger. Even though firearms becoming extremely effective at killing, swords remained in use up until the First World War. Personally, I think this is one of the most beautiful patterns of sword ever made.

Context: here’s Michael Caine carrying his ’45 Pattern in the film Zulu.

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The brass ‘Gothic hilt’ is so-named due to the supposed similarity between the shape of the bars of the guard and the arches found in Gothic architecture. The unsharpened section of the blade near the hilt is called the ricasso. Where the ricasso meets the hilt there should be an oval, leather washer to keep the weather out of the scabbard, but this has been lost here. The curly bit of the guard on the right is the quillon.

In those days, you'd have to visit a tailor to buy your uniform and provide your own kit. Often, the tailors would also commission swordmakers to supply your weapon: sort of a one-stop-shop for war. This sabre came from just such a supplier: Joel Edwards & Sons of Hanover Square, London. Edwards' mark is etched onto the ricasso, but the photos don't show it very well. Eagle-eyed GDers might notice the hinged section of the inner guard. This was made to allow that part to fold flat in order to stop it fraying the tunic. There's a better illustration of this function in the final photograph.

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This picture shows the oval cartouche that depicts Queen Victoria's cipher (an elaborate VR). You can also see the brass proofing ‘slug’ - supposedly a mark of quality that was initially brought in by Wilkinson (I think) and then copied by other makers.

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The blade is single-edged (the sharp edge is called the 'true edge'. the unsharpened back is the 'false edge'), and acid-etched with floral motifs and Queen Victoria's royal cipher. This is an antique, so the blade has some corrosion to it and in the following picture you can see the verdigris on the brass hilt which I still haven't decided to clean off or not. Top tip: if anyone hands you a proper sword please try not to touch the blade as finger marks will corrode the metal. This is because real blades are made from high-carbon steel. You can protect your blade with oil or (my favourite) Renaissance Wax. The Wax dulls the blade a little, but protection is more important.

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The grip is made from fish skin and bound with metal wire. The brass strip to the rear of the grip is called a backstrap and, in later models, was chequered to allow for a better hold.

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The sabre's last quarter or so would be sharpened into what's termed a 'spear point' for the thrust.

It's a long sword, but light in the hands and, to a non-swordsman like me, it feels nimble and quick yet able to deliver a punishing cut. As with most swords that compromise between cut and thrust, it wasn't perfect at either job, but it wasn't a bad weapon all in all. This particular piece doesn’t seem to ever have been service sharpened so I doubt it was carried onto any frontline. As you might be able to tell, I love it – a fantastic bit of history to pick up. You can get similar swords for under £200.

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If anyone would like to know more, please ask.
 
Hybrid, my next purchase in the bayonet category is hopefully a Chassepot. I love the form of it.

Strife, that IC is rather lovely - worth quite a bit now, I think?

Phil, that's a nickel-silver rear sight adjustment tool. At first I thought it might be for the Martini Henry breechloader, but I think it was probably for the Lee Metford bolt-action too. Underneath the windage section, is there David Spence's army service number? If so, you might be able to track him down. LRV could be the Lanarckshire Rifle Volunteers?

Google reveals they are called ventometers.
 
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Anything's welcome here. :)

An SLR, as featured in the first snap (or FN FAL), is on my shopping list, but they are a bit pricey. Don't think Mrs Edrof would like a mortar in the lounge, though...

I've also dug out these photos of the items I was given when my wife's gran passed.

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Nice set of medals there. I don't recognise some of them - do you know them all?

At the Royal Engineers Museum in Chatham, Kent they have the revolver used by Lt John Chard in the battle :)

Thanks for that. Stanley Baker (who played him in the film) had Chard's Victoria Cross which he thought was a copy - it was only after Baker's death that it was proven to be the real thing!

It'll fire 32-20 handgun ammunition. If I ever get my fac I'd love to see how it shoots.

Which Mosin do you have? One of the carbines or the 91/30?
 
Oh my. Well now I'm super-duper jealous maccapacca! :)

Mine has the chamber welded closed and the head of the bolt sawn off at 45 degrees so it can't extract the cartridge even if you could get one in. :( The bolt action still works at least, and I can charge the magazine with a clip of inert rounds, and it dry fires.
 
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he went through them all as he's looking for a specific type (octagonal barrel).

Very nice! The octagonal (hex) barrel shank/receiver is a rarer, earlier feature of the 91/30 Mosins.

Some inert bullets for you all. Points for anyone who can identify them. :)

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Slightly larger snap:
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Random guessing, from left to right -
50bmg, 30/06, 7.62x54r, 7.62x39, .30(edit), .357, .45acp or 9mm, .38(edit)

Can't say for the smaller rounds.. The 7.62's with probably be for a mosin and an sks/ak respectively?
I guess the rimmed cartridge could also be a .303?

Pic of what's stamped on the bases might give more of a clue.

dunno lol :p

Half correct ;)
 
Thought I'd share today's purchases: an en bloc clip (Springfield Armory) filled with inert 30.06 M1 Garand rounds. You probably can't see due to my awful camera, but the casings are fluted; I think this is because the primers are intact (usually inert rounds have struck primers), so the fluting lets you know the round is free from explosives.

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I don't know much about the tube on the right, but I think it once held a fuze for an artillery shell - if anyone knows more, please share! It says L85A2 on the side.

The two brass casings were marked up as 'trench art', but a look at the bottom shows that this is really quite wrong: they are actually engine starting cartridges, one is from 1954 and used on the English Electric Canberra jet bomber and the other for something I haven't found yet. A Canberra:

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Here's the bottom for those interested:
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I forgot, sorry!

Left to right: .50 BMG*, 30.06 Springfield, .303 British, .308 Winchester, .30 Carbine, .38 Special, .45 ACP, 9mm Luger.

*I think this was actually a ranging round for sighting the main gun on a Chieftain tank.

Well done, everyone. :)
 
I have three recent additions to my bayonet collection to report. Fictitious internet points for anyone who can identify them!

The first is rather beautiful in the hand, is dated 1874, and is French. The unusual blade shape is based upon the yataghan style of sword. It was quite an effective design as a sword blade but not so great as a bayonet - however, everyone looked at the new design and thought the French knew what they were doing so it was copied a lot. It didn't help them much during the Franco-Prussian War.

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Dat recurve.
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The French really knew how to mark their bayonets. Instead of just the stamped serial number, this type has a lovely cursive description. It tells us that it was manufactured in St. Etienne in the October of 1874. I have a scabbard for this with matching serial number.


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The second is sans-scabbard and not in great nick, but still, it's a pattern I don't have and is something to put away for future sale, at the very least. The grips are cracked and the blade is slightly wobbly. I don't fancy taking it apart, but might have a go at some point. The maker was producing these from 1937-1941, I think. Sadly there are no other markings.


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The third is pretty much as modern as I get. It's interesting though as it's one of the first (if not the first) multi-use bayonets to enter service. The blade and scabbard combine to make a wire cutter, the 'Bakelite' sections are non-conductive to electricity, the blade has a saw, and the pommel has been designed for use as a hammer. The clipped point aids stabbing, I think. Overall, it's a cheap and ugly (but vicious) little bayonet.
 
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Nearly bought a Bren gun today. Bought a bayonet for the AKM instead.

Bit of a price difference there Macca: £450-550 for the Bren and £30 for the bayo? :D

The grain on your AKM is pretty darn nice. Did the oil bring it out? Doesn't that make it a bit... oily & messy?
 
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