The Next Generation of Graphics APIs

[Kaapstad]

The fuss is because you called the beta API embarrassing because it did not work as well as DX did for you. On your quad fire, ivy-e setup using 200% resolution scaling. For most of us, it works very well (despite the ongoing issues with Battlefield 4) so its no surprise that there is a bit of 'fuss' over your claims.

No one thinks Mantle is perfect Kaap. I've listed many of the problems in the BF4 benchmark thread. The main one is the vram usage as far as im concerned. There was a stall issue initially, but that has been fixed for a while now. Yes there are cpu spikes when you exceed the vram limit, but that's hardly a shock is it. If there are cpu spikes in other scenario's it most likely down to the game itself. I think we all know that from the BF4 benchmark thread.

Do you really know what Mantles weaknesses and faults are? Or are you just referring to how its been programmed for by Dice in BF4? Because at the end of the day any fault likely lies with the game itself rather than an issue specifically related to Mantle. If this was the case, then star swarm and thief would have the same issues with vram, would they not?

After all the hype about Mantle it is embarrassing how much better DX11 is than Mantle when using extreme settings. If you check the scores HardOCP managed as I pointed out in another thread they are considerably worse than what I have managed.

Mantle is good in a lot of situations but it is not good in all.

 

[LtMatt]

After all the hype about Mantle it is embarrassing how much better DX11 is than Mantle when using extreme settings. If you check the scores HardOCP managed as I pointed out in another thread they are considerably worse than what I have managed.

Mantle is good in a lot of situations but it is not good in all.

So you would agree that Mantle is better in a lot more situations than DX then? As far as i can see it, you have one or two specific situations which virtually no one uses that DX excels in over Mantle. In that situation AMD users can just use DX until the free Mantle API is brought up to scratch in its vram usage and quad gpu scaling.

You didn't answer my question so i assume you know the issue likely lies with the programming of BF4 via Dice than via a problem specifically related to the API itself.

 

[Silent_Scone]

For sure, I'd hazard a guess at by 2016 you';ll get to play at least 6 games.

truth really lol.

I've seen and spoken with a friend of mine who I've met through another board, and DX12 will offer practically everything Mantle has but with the footing that Microsoft already have on the industry. It's certainly not all smoke and mirrors. On the other hand you've got Mantle, which is still very closely screened. Only special folks get a look in

 

[LtMatt]

truth really lol.

I've seen and spoken with a friend of mine who I've met through another board, and DX12 will offer practically everything Mantle has but with the footing that Microsoft already have on the industry. It's certainly not all smoke and mirrors.

I hope that's the case, it will be good for us all. If not, well we'll have a established Mantle to fall back on by then. Lets hope DX12 does not end up bloated and offers the same level of cpu performance as Mantle.

 

[Kaapstad]

So you would agree that Mantle is better in a lot more situations than DX then? As far as i can see it, you have one situation which virtually no one uses that DX excels in over Mantle. In that situation AMD users can just use DX until the free Mantle API is brought up to scratch in its vram usage.

Yes in 99% of situations Mantle works very well.

You didn't answer my question so i assume you know the issue likely lies with the programming of BF4 via Dice than via a problem specifically related to the API itself.

As to where the problem lies, I try and keep things simple. If something does not work properly that is the bottom line for me. I really don't care whether it is Dice or AMD at fault, I just want it to work. If I were to give it some thought though I would blame Dice for not getting it right but I would also blame AMD for allowing Dice to use Mantle in situations where it is not quite right.

 

[Silent_Scone]

I genuinely think people are quick to judge DirectX though. The 'DX Magic' texture handling seems a lot more stable than letting developers loose on it, it would seem. The only two Mantle titles we have currently seem to be overflowing drastically in this department. Clearly at least a few withinin their driver team know what they're doing.

 

[LtMatt]

I genuinely think people are quick to judge DirectX though. The 'DX Magic' texture handling seems a lot more stable than letting developers loose on it, it would seem. The only two Mantle titles we have currently seem to be overflowing drastically in this department.

Aside from BF4 what other title has a problem with using too much vram under Mantle?

 

[bru]

Aside from BF4 what other title has a problem with using too much vram under Mantle?

Oh so 50% of the available Mantle titles isn't enough then.


Come on there are only two games out and one has a good few issues for some people, I'm sure there are people with issues with direct X as well but people are not saying that it is all rosey.

(I know you were not saying it is all rosey, but that is the general feeling that seems to coming across from the red camp at the moment)

Kaap tried one of the two games available and let you know his findings, and yet he's getting grilled for it.

 

[humbug]

Oh so 50% of the available Mantle titles isn't enough then.


Come on there are only two games out and one has a good few issues for some people, I'm sure there are people with issues with direct X as well but people are not saying that it is all rosey.

(I know you were not saying it is all rosey, but that is the general feeling that seems to coming across from the red camp at the moment)

Kaap tried one of the two games available and let you know his findings, and yet he's getting grilled for it.

What do you and Kaap want from AMD?

Do you want them to bully DICE into Fixing BF4, do you think that would be helpful?

The only ones responsible for DICE are DICE, I'm sure AMD have tried just as hard as Gaming Journalists, Users and even EA to get DICE to fix BF4.

Its still every bit as broken as it always has been no matter what API its running in.

No reason to Grill AMD. Grill DICE.

 

[Rusty0611]

I hope that's the case, it will be good for us all. If not, well we'll have a established Mantle to fall back on by then. Lets hope DX12 does not end up bloated and offers the same level of cpu performance as Mantle.

If it's even implemented.

 

[Ian Evey]

If mantle is a success then amd users will blab on about how great and fast it runs games while nvidia users have dx only, if it fails to dx12 amd users will blab on about how mantle made Microsoft create dx12 and amd made PC gaming move on.

Two outcomes both with 2 faces.

 

[LtMatt]

Oh so 50% of the available Mantle titles isn't enough then.


Come on there are only two games out and one has a good few issues for some people, I'm sure there are people with issues with direct X as well but people are not saying that it is all rosey.

(I know you were not saying it is all rosey, but that is the general feeling that seems to coming across from the red camp at the moment)

Kaap tried one of the two games available and let you know his findings, and yet he's getting grilled for it.

Did i say that? I asked what other titles had issues with vram usage as Frosty specifically mentioned it. Further this vram issue is down to Dices programming of Mantle and their memory management, not something that is to be associated with the API in general on other games. There is no evidence in the other Mantle title Thief and the Mantle demo StarSwarm that such an issue exists. Perhaps this issue is just down to BF4.

As for getting grilled, he's not he's just getting called out somewhat for saying its embarrassing because in his one specific and extremely unique experience 5 year old DX performs better than 5 month old Beta Mantle. Never mind all other instances that affect pretty much everyone in which Mantle is better in every facet, the only thing that counts, matters and will affect this API's life expectancy is the one thing that affects virtually no one, currently.

If it's even implemented.

Its in at least four major game engines already and its only 5 months old. Until DX12 is here id say it will be implemented more than people would intially think.

 

[Rusty0611]

Its in at least four major game engines already and its only 5 months old. Until DX12 is here id say it will be implemented more than people would intially think.

Being 'in' a game engine (what does that even mean ) not equal to being in games though.

At the end of the day until it actually manifests itself into games alongside DX more often people will remain sceptical. It seems like Mantle has been around for years... I do have to remind myself it's not been that long but the list of up and coming Mantle games isn't exactly spine-tingling .

 

[_Alatar_]

Have a look at the Thief benchmark thread. Big gains for most people on that vs DX.

Spoiler

Single GPU

#1, Avenged7Fold: 290X @ 1300/1600, 4770K @4.5 - Mantle FPS: Min 71.4 / Avr 86.3. Link
#2, Gregster: GTXTitan @ 1306/1881, 3930K @ 5Ghz - DirectX FPS: Min 60.5 / Avr 84.2. Link
#3, tommybhoy: 290X @ 1175/1475, 3770K @ 4.5Ghz - Mantle FPS: Min 59.7 / Avr 81.8. Link
#4, Protoo: 290X @ 1208/1498, FX-9370 @ 4.9Ghz - Mantle FPS: Min 63.0 / Avr 80.3 - DirectX FPS: Min 36.0 / Avr 56.0. Link
#5, Kaapstad: 290X @ 1250/1625, 4930k @ 4.8Ghz - Mantle FPS: Min 61.3 / Avr 79.4 - DirectX FPS: Min 61.9 / Avr 80.2. Link
#6, Humbug: 290P @ 1150/1400, P-II x6 @ 4Ghz - Mantle FPS: Min 58.3 / Avr 70.2 - DirectX FPS: Min 31.5 / Avr 45.4. Link
#7, ElliorR: 290P @ 977/1250, 4670k @ 3.4Ghz - Mantle FPS: Min 56.1 / Avr 66.8 - DirectX FPS: Min 34.7 / Avr 60.7. Link
#8, Protoo: 7950 @ 1250/1751, FX-9370 @ 4.8Ghz - Mantle FPS: Min 46.5 / Avr 58.5 - DirectX FPS: Min 34.5 / Avr 50.8. Link

Your results do look a tad low for the clocks used as well Kaap, on both API's.

I am not trying to start anything here, but looking at those numbers and comparing the 290X to the Titan it looks more like DX is dogging on AMD cards in Thief rather than Mantle is pumping on them :S

I agree, NV's DX isn't that far off at all, especially once we add some more green to the top of the list:

Spoiler

Nvidia GTX Titan @ 1346/1925, 4770K @ 5.0Ghz

E: 1080P

Thief loves some fast CPUs at low resolutions.

 

[LtMatt]

Being 'in' a game engine (what does that even mean ) not equal to being in games though.

At the end of the day until it actually manifests itself into games alongside DX more often people will remain sceptical.

Well games aren't made overnight unfortunately, i wish there were more ready but what can you do. Its reassuring to know that there are many in development though. The more game engines that support Mantle the better, i think. With DX12 still a year or longer away though there is plenty of time.

I agree, NV's DX isn't that far off at all, especially once we add some more green to the top of the list:


Thief loves some fast CPUs at low resolutions.

15 fps faster than Greg's water cooled overclocked titan. Looks legit, not.

How long ago was that bench run?

 

[_Alatar_]

I dunno, 1 hour ago.

Do note that he's running sandy and I'm on haswell = much better single core perf which is what thief loves as an unreal game. I even had cache at 5ghz.

 

[MyBrainz]

Interesting read.

1. A 5 month old API is crap because it doesnt support Quadfire.
2. Suddenly AMD aint really that good at DX games.
3. 50% of Mantle games use too much VRAM (when theres only 2 Mantle games out in those first 5 months).

But as usual we have another war. What a shocker!

--

Btw guys..

A 5 month old child has its weaknesses too.

Nearly ALL tech is released with bugs and issues so why should Mantle be any different?

Grow up for Gods sake.

My 24/7 settings in BF4 now giving mostly constant 60fps (vsync on) with only something like a cruise missile dipping my frames into the mid to high 50's..

Spoiler

Spoiler

I had CPU spikes again last night but then noticed that the CTE had downloaded a patch update.. after restarting the game the spikes had gone

Max VRAM with these settings is around 2.6GB and if Mantle would clear the VRAM after each round i reckon i could do full ultra as the build up of VRAM wouldnt be an issue. But hey both BF4 and Mantle are still in Beta

I posted this in the BF4 benchmark thread. Its pretty obvious this is a Dice problem. They havnt even fixed the Medium Terrain setting thats actually Low. That just sums up Dice right now.

Edit.. Oh and that straight yellow CPU line in the pics? That stays flatlined pretty much all the time im playing BF4, even on 64p servers.

 

[triss]

I think some of you have missed Kaaps point,, In His situation mantle is worse than DX He has as much right to say its not working for him as Humbugs Saying his low cpu is preforming as good as a latest top one .
Yet i dont see him being ridiculed for it. Mantle isnt perfect a lot of you admit it yet as soon as one of its issues is pointed out you all jump on that person going on about other stuff.
Mantle is a great thing for a lot of Users but atm its not for everyone , And yes there are issues like the Vram thing which is in 50% of released mantle games,, Yes it may be dice or it may not be there simply isnt enough games out there atm to judge. Does thief have it ,no but once again this is a 50% sample and to dismiss bf4 vs it is silly as thief might well have other reasons the vram doesnt change it may not been using all the aspects of mantle BF4 does we dont know until more games are released.

 

[bru]

I think some of you have missed Kaaps point,, In His situation mantle is worse than DX He has as much right to say its not working for him as Humbugs Saying his low cpu is preforming as good as a latest top one .
Yet i dont see him being ridiculed for it. Mantle isnt perfect a lot of you admit it yet as soon as one of its issues is pointed out you all jump on that person going on about other stuff.
Mantle is a great thing for a lot of Users but atm its not for everyone , And yes there are issues like the Vram thing which is in 50% of released mantle games,, Yes it may be dice or it may not be there simply isnt enough games out there atm to judge. Does thief have it ,no but once again this is a 50% sample and to dismiss bf4 vs it is silly as thief might well have other reasons the vram doesnt change it may not been using all the aspects of mantle BF4 does we dont know until more games are released.

Well said. +1

 

[LtMatt]

I think some of you have missed Kaaps point,, In His situation mantle is worse than DX He has as much right to say its not working for him as Humbugs Saying his low cpu is preforming as good as a latest top one .
Yet i dont see him being ridiculed for it. Mantle isnt perfect a lot of you admit it yet as soon as one of its issues is pointed out you all jump on that person going on about other stuff.
Mantle is a great thing for a lot of Users but atm its not for everyone , And yes there are issues like the Vram thing which is in 50% of released mantle games,, Yes it may be dice or it may not be there simply isnt enough games out there atm to judge. Does thief have it ,no but once again this is a 50% sample and to dismiss bf4 vs it is silly as thief might well have other reasons the vram doesnt change it may not been using all the aspects of mantle BF4 does we dont know until more games are released.

Nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, but perhaps it could and should have been worded better. If you express such a strong opinion about something then people are entitled to react to it. Especially if the opinion expressed goes against the grain of many others. I don't think anyone responded inappropriately to what was said either.

Game devs are responsible for the memory management in Mantle triss, that's how it works. So yes, we are right in this instance to say its a BF4 fault not a Mantle fault.

Johan Andersson's slides from his Mantle presentation, sub section memory management. He talks about stalls, over committing memory and they hope to redesig how the memory management works in BF4 to avoid over committing. The exact issue Kaap is talking about.

Spoiler

Source
http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/rendering-battlefield-4-with-mantle