*** The Official Microsoft Surface Thread ***

[NathanE]

Why? I think they're perfectly happy having iOS with its touch-optimised UI and apps, and a separate line of 'real' computers. I don't want to try and use a finger with OS X.

What makes you assume I meant that? That would be like trying to use W7 on a tablet. It "works" but isn't really optimised.

Apple would need to port the iOS look'n'feel to OSX. In the same way that Microsoft ported the WP7 look'n'feel (called Metro) to W8 - albeit heavily re-engineered.

It's no different to how Microsoft has finally dropped the horrid Windows CE kernel that ran WP7 and WP7.5. iOS is, fundamentally, the same sort of thing. It's a microlite piece of **** just like WinCE that has no place anymore on modern phones that are more powerful than the average PC from 2002. If a PC from back then could run a NT kernel then a phone sure as hell can today. And bring a thousand improvements to the user experience, reliability, performance and application developer convergence stories whilst it's at it.

If Apple isn't completely and utterly stupid, this will have been a skunkworks project that they'd have started at least 2 years ago. If they haven't started it then they've already lost the tablet PC era before it even got properly started.

PS: Xbox vNext runs NT kernel too, has Metro, and supports W8/WP8 Metro apps... and you can use the higher resolution Kinect vNext to control it. Complete and total emulation of the Minority Report UI is only a year or two away now. It will actually be *better* because... look ma', no gloves!

 

[englishpremier]

Are phone more powerful than PCs of back then?

I'd like to see some benchmarks, just out of curiosity.

 

[NathanE]

Are phone more powerful than PCs of back then?

I'd like to see some benchmarks, just out of curiosity.

Obviously it depends upon the task. But essentially smartphones today have similar amounts of RAM to the average PC back then. They can decode H.264 video which not many PCs could back then. Actual CPU power is of course debatable, but it's ARM vs x86 which complicates things.

 

[EDDS]

I don't know what to do, up until Monday I was going to get a Samsung Slate but then Microsoft came out with this awesome looking device and I've decied I'm going to get two RT's, one for my mum, one for my dad and a pro when that comes out for myself.

But now I'm wondering if it'll be a waste of money buying the Samsung one now which obviously aint as good as the pro surface.

I really want a Windows 8 tablet now but at the same time don't want to waste my money, what to do!!!!!!

 

[Skellig]

I want the ASUS Ivybridge Windows 8 Transformer for under £600 please

Don't like what the keyboard looks like on the Surface but I'm loving the fact that we are seeing desktop OS on a tablet.

Love me some hybrids!

 

[cu3ed]

I don't know what to do, up until Monday I was going to get a Samsung Slate but then Microsoft came out with this awesome looking device and I've decied I'm going to get two RT's, one for my mum, one for my dad and a pro when that comes out for myself.

But now I'm wondering if it'll be a waste of money buying the Samsung one now which obviously aint as good as the pro surface.

I really want a Windows 8 tablet now but at the same time don't want to waste my money, what to do!!!!!!

The moment the Pro is available you will wish you had waited, so wait lo.

 

[Caged]

What makes you assume I meant that?

Because you said "bring OS X to a high end iPad". If you meant the look and feel of iOS but OS X underneath then that's not really OS X any more. What's the point in having to retool applications for a different UI when you could just write an iOS app?

As far as mobile OSes go, I don't really care what my devices run or how they go about it. If I can't see the supposed mess that is iOS then it doesn't make a difference to me, likewise I don't really care that app developers need to either own a Mac to write the apps, or pay someone else a lot of money to do it, they seem perfectly happy to do this so far.

Considering Microsoft are the people who's recent mobile play (by recent I mean post-iPhone) has consisted of the Kin and a platform running on a phone that you can buy today that will be totally left behind as soon as WP8 is released, I don't really hold out much hope that this time round they are magically going to get it right.

I see your points about app development but broadly speaking people will develop for whatever platform is popular, to an extent regardless of how easy or difficult it is to do so. WP8 / Windows 8 on a tablet can be the nicest platform in the world to develop apps for, but without features that mean there's a market to sell those apps into, people won't bother.

 

[NathanE]

Because you said "bring OS X to a high end iPad".

No that's quoted out of context. Read my post again.

If you meant the look and feel of iOS but OS X underneath then that's not really OS X any more. What's the point in having to retool applications for a different UI when you could just write an iOS app?

Yes it is OSX. Just in the same way that Windows 8 is still Windows underneath all the Metro lark. It really feels like you've not understood my post at all. You simply read "bring OSX to a high end iPad" and gone off on one without thinking about what I actually said and/or meant.

As far as mobile OSes go, I don't really care what my devices run or how they go about it. If I can't see the supposed mess that is iOS then it doesn't make a difference to me, likewise I don't really care that app developers need to either own a Mac to write the apps, or pay someone else a lot of money to do it, they seem perfectly happy to do this so far.

Considering Microsoft are the people who's recent mobile play (by recent I mean post-iPhone) has consisted of the Kin and a platform running on a phone that you can buy today that will be totally left behind as soon as WP8 is released, I don't really hold out much hope that this time round they are magically going to get it right.

Well yes. I suspect most "consumers" don't care either about nitty gritty details. That's because they think in terms of the end goal e.g. "battery life", "stability", "multi-tasking", "video performance", "cross-app integration". It's "simple" stuff like timer coalescing in the NT kernel that helps saves battery life by the way. Fortunately technical decisions like this aren't left up to consumers though otherwise the human race simply wouldn't progress. iOS has severe limitations, in the same way that WinCE does, and very soon if not already Apple will start hitting in to major blocks and pain points.

W8 and WP8 will benefit from having a halo effect together. People with a shiny W8 tablet will want a WP8 because it runs all the same apps. Likewise, a year or so later the new Xbox will be out and that runs Metro apps too. It's a new ecosystem that Microsoft is building. It doesn't happen overnight. But the vision they have is far in excess of anything that Apple currently has shown. Apple seems content with its fragmented marketplace of having OSX apps on one hand and iOS apps on the other. This is not sustainable. It's not efficient. It's costly to ISVs. It's not a winning solution that dominates across multiple markets.

I see your points about app development but broadly speaking people will develop for whatever platform is popular, to an extent regardless of how easy or difficult it is to do so. WP8 / Windows 8 on a tablet can be the nicest platform in the world to develop apps for, but without features that mean there's a market to sell those apps into, people won't bother.

It's a combination of things that determines it. Not just "because it's the most popular". There was a time that iOS was brand new and had hardly any apps. Everyone starts somewhere. It's platform potential that gets developer's excited and it's developer support that creates a successful ecosystem. By locking W8 and WP8's app marketplaces together and removing almost all hurdles from developers in releasing their apps for both types of device, Microsoft has ensured that growth on one will benefit the other.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

I fully expect the surface and W8 will have just as many problems as any product has ever had from any tech company, including NathanE's beloved MS. They haven't exactly had it clean the last few years. WP7 has had problems. Vista - well, nuff said. And the various failed technologies they have had over the years.

I'm still looking forward to see what they have to offer, and how it will differ from Apple's stuff. But I'm under no illusion it won't be without problems though.

As for having just one SDK/API.. surely not even you believe that NathanE? It's a new product, so sure.. one at the moment. Give it a while and we'll see some nastyness like we have with Silverlight and #if SILVERLIGHT preprocessing macros in .NET today.

 

[NathanE]

Win32 API has existed for what 25 years? WinRT is a clean state, and a object-oriented one. There's no reason it can't repeat Win32's success.

The SDK wrapper around WinRT for .NET is baked right into the core of the CLR via COM/CIL metadata. The overheads are very very small.

#if SILVERLIGHT usage suggests sub-par design. Separation of concerns. More generally though, Silverlight was never a first-class citizen in Microsoft's technology stack. Whereas WinRT is citizen zero, no exceptions.


"Vista - well, nuff said"
It was ahead of its time. Technically it was excellent. The first OS to bring hardware accelerated desktop windows composition to the mainstream.

Your post is of very poor quality IMO.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

You mean the same Win32 API that has changed many times in those years?

Sub-par design? Lol. By Microsoft, sure. You can't avoid them.

 

[Caged]

I think it's too little too late. Apple got away with being brand new and having hardly any apps because there was no other platform with the concept of an app store. Android got a good foothold by having millions of different devices to suit all budgets, and Microsoft are trying to play catch up, ironically by making all their current WP7 customers resent ever buying into it. I'd love to see a three way race between Windows, iOS and Android because it's ultimately good for the end user, but this isn't going to be the magic pill you think it is.

Also, please stop playing the role of the judge of posts. It's irritating.

 

[NathanE]

You mean the same Win32 API that has changed many times in those years?

Sub-par design? Lol. By Microsoft, sure. You can't avoid them.

Yes the same Win32 API that has changed, morphed but always remained backward compatible. They even added Unicode support half way through without breaking back compat.

And yes, sub-par design. If you're seeing #if SILVERLIGHT in code then it wasn't designed right.

 

[NathanE]

I think it's too little too late. Apple got away with being brand new and having hardly any apps because there was no other platform with the concept of an app store. Android got a good foothold by having millions of different devices to suit all budgets, and Microsoft are trying to play catch up, ironically by making all their current WP7 customers resent ever buying into it.

All I would say to you on this point is a small history lesson in that Microsoft rarely enters virgin markets.

Windows 1.0 was in response to what Apple was doing. They won in the end.
Xbox was in response to what Sony was doing. They won in the end.
Zune was in response to what Apple was doing. They lost.
Windows Phone was in response to what Apple was doing. Whilst it doesn't look too great, they've not lost yet. WP8 will be the decider.

The point here is that just because you are second, even third or worse, doesn't mean you are certain to fail. Apple weren't the first to make a MP3 player, nor a mobile phone. It's about execution, delivery, ecosystem and follow-up.

iPhone 1 customers were shafted in the same way. All v1.x customers get shafted, it's a universal law of consumer electronics.

I'd love to see a three way race between Windows, iOS and Android because it's ultimately good for the end user, but this isn't going to be the magic pill you think it is.

All I've done is describe the inherent competitive advantages and long term vision behind the W8 and WP8 platforms. And I've suggested ways in which Apple is likely to respond to these threats from Microsoft.

I've highlighted in several ways that building a new ecosystem isn't easy. So I'm not quite sure where you got the feeling that I think W8/WP8 is a "magic pill".

Microsoft has bet the entire company on this really, so you can rest assured that they must be confident regardless of anything I'm saying. If they fail, then it's the end of Microsoft basically - at least as we know them today.

Also, please stop playing the role of the judge of posts. It's irritating.

I called out a low quality trollishly written post and I'm the one who is irritating

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Trollishly written? Low quality? Is it "trollishly written" because it disagreed with you, and called you out?

Nice of you to make yet more judgements on posts though. It's a shame you can't have a serious discussion without taking offence.

 

[Caged]

iPhone 1 customers were shafted in the same way. All v1.x customers get shafted, it's a universal law of consumer electronics

the iPhone 1 received its final software update 32 months after it was released, WP7 hasn't yet been out for 24 months and MS are already putting it to bed after breaking a lot of their promises they initially made when the platform launched.

It's clear that you believe in what MS are trying to achieve and think they can become a dominant player, but just because other people look at their track record and are skeptical doesn't make them wrong, or trolls.

 

[NathanE]

Trollishly written? Low quality? Is it "trollishly written" because it disagreed with you, and called you out?

Nice of you to make yet more judgements on posts though. It's a shame you can't have a serious discussion without taking offence.

I fully expect the surface and W8 will have just as many problems as any product has ever had from any tech company, including NathanE's beloved MS. They haven't exactly had it clean the last few years. WP7 has had problems. Vista - well, nuff said. And the various failed technologies they have had over the years.

I'm still looking forward to see what they have to offer, and how it will differ from Apple's stuff. But I'm under no illusion it won't be without problems though.

As for having just one SDK/API.. surely not even you believe that NathanE? It's a new product, so sure.. one at the moment. Give it a while and we'll see some nastyness like we have with Silverlight and #if SILVERLIGHT preprocessing macros in .NET today.

Green = completely fine.
Red = trolly
Orange = slightly trolly
Grey = either superfluous, incorrect, or just misinformed FUD. Disregard at will.

There's really no need for it. I agreed with the key points of your post. Even if you think I disagree(d), I don't. The rest of it was just trollish to provoke a reaction.

 

[Caged]

Who'd have thought a discussion about a product that doesn't exist yet would contain speculation and opinions?

 

[NathanE]

the iPhone 1 received its final software update 32 months after it was released, WP7 hasn't yet been out for 24 months and MS are already putting it to bed after breaking a lot of their promises they initially made when the platform launched.

They've not actually stopped support for it... WP7.8 is coming. And MS hasn't ruled out further future updates.

Where are you getting your misinformation?

It's clear that you believe in what MS are trying to achieve and think they can become a dominant player, but just because other people look at their track record and are skeptical doesn't make them wrong, or trolls.

Their track record is pretty damn good really. People just focus on the bad points. But even Apple has bad points, even recently, in their track record.

I wouldn't say I "believe in". That makes me seem like some religious zealot that can't see the wood from the trees. I am merely confident that their business plan is going to work. I've done the homework to come to my conclusion. That's all it is.

Don't take the moral high ground by making out I'm throwing the troll word around willy nilly. I'm not. I'm an ex-moderator on here so I know how things work. Dj_Jester wrote a trollish post, see above for the dissection, and he has a bit of a rep for it.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Disregard at will? The part you didn't disregard, and is actually based on fact - both historical and current? Righto. As for "Misinformed FUD".. well, that's just arrogance. Denial without reason, or perhaps just trolling?