The Royals

Firestar_3x said:
BS meter aside, I find it somewhat comical that you know the apparent financial inns and outs of loads of your "friends" businesses.

Anyway keep digging a hole, legend thread in the making.
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Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. The fact is if people do well in business, they quite often like to tell people how they got there to inspire them in the world of business and hard work. Watch Dragon's Den and the orange haired one if you don't believe me.
 
@Cryogenic Where have I said your neighbour is a fool and your dog walker friend is a fool? I'm still not sure what you're trying to achieve here - you don't seem to have grasped the point if you're asking me to do the flawed thing I've already pointed out is flawed, namely extrapolating from some snapshot of their business and assuming that the rate they earned in some small period of time is sustainable on an ongoing basis.

You've already shown that you've got things completely confused with the one example that could be verified, the matched betting one, I don't therefore have much faith in your anecdotes. I'm not sure what relevance the car I drive has to do with this?

Anyway - your individual friends/anecdotes aren't particularly useful here when others have collected data from multiple people in the business areas you talk about:

For example 48 individual babysitters:

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Babysitter/Hourly_Rate

No where near the figures you claim

Likewise dog walkers - not to be sniffed at, they apparently earn more than the average salary but they're also no where near the figures you claim, they're around 26k.... in London! They can earn substantially more by keeping dogs overnight up to 64k... but again still no where near the £500 a day you're claiming:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...alkers-earn-64-000-year-trust-look-pooch.html

Direct Line Pet Insurance published a survey this week suggesting that a fairly successful dog-walker, typically walking 13 dogs a day, solo or in groups, can easily exceed the national average annual salary of £22,000, making £26,000 or more.

In London, the hourly rate is commonly £14 or more per dog. Put the walking hours in, or look after dogs for a whole day — so-called ‘doggy day care’ — and you can do a lot better than £26,000.

Carers prepared to look after pets overnight — sometimes for weeks and months when owners are away — can make up to £64,000.
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I drive a supercharged Aston Martin One-77 with supercharger belt made by Gucci as a special item for me because I am such a high earner.

I started with a groat and easily turned that into eleventy million pounds in a month by walking dogs on eBay. Anyone can do it. There's no reason not to.
 
dowie said:
@Cryogenic Where have I said your neighbour is a fool and your dog walker friend is a fool? I'm still not sure what you're trying to achieve here - you don't seem to have grasped the point if you're asking me to do the flawed thing I've already pointed out is flawed, namely extrapolating from some snapshot of their business and assuming that the rate they earned in some small period of time is sustainable on an ongoing basis.

You've already shown that you've got things completely confused with the one example that could be verified, the matched betting one, I don't therefore have much faith in your anecdotes. I'm not sure what relevance the car I drive has to do with this?

Anyway - your individual friends/anecdotes aren't particularly useful here when others have collected data from multiple people in the business areas you talk about:

For example 48 individual babysitters:

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Babysitter/Hourly_Rate

No where near the figures you claim

Likewise dog walkers - not to be sniffed at, they apparently earn more than the average salary but they're also no where near the figures you claim, they're around 26k.... in London! They can earn substantially more by keeping dogs overnight up to 64k... but again still no where near the £500 a day you're claiming:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...alkers-earn-64-000-year-trust-look-pooch.html
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Thank God you finally agree with me! Yes, these are absolutely the rates.

1. Wife charges £8.75/hr for 8hrs = £140 for brother and sister minus food costs - gets this gig once/twice a week, sometimes none during christmas and when parents go on holiday. Had a load of cheapskates before this, but this is a nice family
2. Dog walker - this figure stands @ £10/hr per dog. Existing clientel. New business probably would be a tenth of that, this is a running biz however with good well-to-do clients gained over time by the previous owner
3. Man and Van - the figure stands @ £75 for each sofa drop (but this includes minor assembly service), £40 extra for removals. £60 for man/van only service (North West only). Diary booked weeks in advance, but has to pay his drivers mate and diesel out of own pocket.

I think the whole point of the real life scenarios was to prove that if you work hard, you can become a land owning aristocrat too.
 
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Cryogenic said:
[..] I think the whole point of this was to prove that if you work hard, you can become a land owning aristocrat too.
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Which is why most people are land owning aristocrats, obviously. A bit of hard work for a few years at most and then free money and luxury for life, guaranteed! Of course most people do that. Sure beats working for a living.

Er...wait...why are almost all of these land owning aristocrats working as employees and keeping their titles and lands secret?


Hmm...I own land and I could buy a meaningless title. Lord of the Manor of somewhere, there's some of those for sale. But I don't think that counts.
 
Cryogenic said:
Thank God you finally agree with me! Yes, these are absolutely the rates.
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I'm not sure why you're saying "finally" and then citing something that wasn't disputed in the first place like some hourly rate for dog walking or babysitting.

I'm not agreeing with you though, you've now ignored the fundamental issue here, where you do some handwaving and make claims about these rather mundane jobs generating £500 a day...

I think the whole point of the real life scenarios was to prove that if you work hard, you can become a land owning aristocrat too.
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Well you've not proved that at all and looking at the data it isn't true, a typical babysitter is a low wage earner (often part time) and a dog walker, while earning above the national average is hardly raking it in.
 
dowie said:
I'm not sure why you're saying "finally" and then citing something that wasn't disputed in the first place like some hourly rate for dog walking or babysitting.

I'm not agreeing with you though, you've now ignored the fundamental issue here, where you do some handwaving and make claims about these rather mundane jobs generating £500 a day...



Well you've not proved that at all and looking at the data it isn't true, a typical babysitter is a low wage earner (often part time) and a dog walker, while earning above the national average is hardly raking it in.
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Think you're missing the point as well. I did mention the wife had a load of low key cheapskates before finding a good family for sitting purposes, it was just pot luck.

A typical dog walker will earn what you describe, likely less, but this is a professional dog walking business with one employer and one employee, servicing well off middle class clients only

My point is in any any business, you will get all sorts of crummy customers at first, but eventually you will build up an order book - this is where the money is, not when you start up! There is no money in startups!
 
Your point is flawed and the data shows otherwise, the dog walker survey wasn't limited to only new dog walkers for example.

You're just completely detached from reality if you think that babysitters, dog walkers and man with van types can typically get £500 a day if they just stick to middle class customers or somehow magically avoid the crummy customers etc... they just need to build up an order book and then £500 a day is theirs.
 
Angilion said:
Which is why most people are land owning aristocrats, obviously. A bit of hard work for a few years at most and then free money and luxury for life, guaranteed! Of course most people do that. Sure beats working for a living.

Er...wait...why are almost all of these land owning aristocrats working as employees and keeping their titles and lands secret?


Hmm...I own land and I could buy a meaningless title. Lord of the Manor of somewhere, there's some of those for sale. But I don't think that counts.
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Take my example. I own land, but I still need to work in my less than £10/hr job to put food on the table. Any other income is reinvested, I will probably be working to 67 like anyone else, just my net worth will be slightly different. This is no different to they Royals, they own billions in land but have no salary I believe (could be totally wrong).
 
Cryogenic said:
Take my example. I own land, but I still need to work in my less than £10/hr job to put food on the table. Any other income is reinvested, I will probably be working to 67 like anyone else, just my net worth will be slightly different. This is no different to they Royals, they own billions in land but have no salary I believe (could be totally wrong).
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Working royals do get an annual salary. I'm not sure it is accurate to claim in general that they "own billions", the Queen's personal wealth tends to be valued in the hundreds of millions, though obviously she has additional income from and access to assets way beyond what she personally owns.

The day to day costs are paid from the 15% of the income from the Crown Estate that the government pays to the Queen. The Queen also gets an annual income from other means such as the Duchy of Lancaster - this trust is worth around 500 million IIRC, this income (about 20 million a year) is used for private expenditure.

Prince Charles similarly gets an annual income from the Duchy of Cornwall, this trust is worth more like 1 billion IIRC. He doesn't own it though nor have it for the whole of his life, when he gets the throne William will get an income from the Duchy of Cornwall and Charles will get one from the Duchy of Lancaster.
 
Cryogenic said:
Take my example. I own land, but I still need to work in my less than £10/hr job to put food on the table. Any other income is reinvested, I will probably be working to 67 like anyone else, just my net worth will be slightly different. This is no different to they Royals, they own billions in land but have no salary I believe (could be totally wrong).
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Some of the royal family have a personal income from some of the land and businesses they own. They have a personal financial persona and a royal financial persona, with the two being seperate. So, for example, the queen owns billions in land which she chooses to put into her royal financial persona and pay 100% income tax on (the Crown Estate) but she also owns an undisclosed amount of mixed assets in her personal financial persona and pays normal income tax on income from those assets. Even that's not entirely clear-cut, as most of it is tied up in a trust fund type of arrangement and she has no access to the capital (because it's to be passed down to future monarchs) and some of the income is used for official expenses. Also, technically the income tax she pays is not income tax as she's not technically liable for income tax because she technically (although not really) owns the treasury.

Things are messy when you're working with a thousand years of ad hoc changes to a complex system.

She's not that rich personally as long as she remains the monarch. All the agreements are on that basis. She still owns all the stuff, all the billions of pounds of it, so if we became a republic she'd still own it and would then promptly become a multi-billionaire.
 
Angilion said:
She's not that rich personally as long as she remains the monarch. All the agreements are on that basis. She still owns all the stuff, all the billions of pounds of it, so if we became a republic she'd still own it and would then promptly become a multi-billionaire.
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I'm not sure that is quite so clear cut, I doubt that the Crown Estate, should the UK become a republic, would suddenly become the personal property of the former monarch. I guess it depends in part on how such a republic came about, if via parliament unilaterally forcing out the monarch or a revolution of sorts then no chance, if via a negotiation then still low odds I'd imagine... I can't see, for example, a rich family being entitled to almost all the shore line of the UK for example.

Obviously she/they'd keep the privately held assets - Sandringham, Balmoral etc... and I suspect that if there were to be some negotiations over other assets then perhaps parts of parts of the Royal Collection, Crown Jewels. etc.. would be on the table possibly also the likes of the Duchy of Lancaster and Duchy of Cornwall I mean they're set up as trusts to serve the Sovereign and the Prince of Wales so if those positions cease to exist then I'm not sure... The Crown Estate though, that is further removed still, ostensibly the income from it goes to the government and 15% paid back with the agreement of the Sovereign, in reality though in the case of a Sovereign ceasing to be a Sovereign I don't think (in most cases) they'd be in a strong position to get to keep it.
 
dowie said:
I'm not sure that is quite so clear cut, I doubt that the Crown Estate, should the UK become a republic, would suddenly become the personal property of the former monarch. I guess it depends in part on how such a republic came about, if via parliament unilaterally forcing out the monarch or a revolution of sorts then no chance, if via a negotiation then still low odds I'd imagine... I can't see, for example, a rich family being entitled to almost all the shore line of the UK for example.

Obviously she/they'd keep the privately held assets - Sandringham, Balmoral etc... and I suspect that if there were to be some negotiations over other assets then perhaps parts of parts of the Royal Collection, Crown Jewels. etc.. would be on the table possibly also the likes of the Duchy of Lancaster and Duchy of Cornwall I mean they're set up as trusts to serve the Sovereign and the Prince of Wales so if those positions cease to exist then I'm not sure... The Crown Estate though, that is further removed still, ostensibly the income from it goes to the government and 15% paid back with the agreement of the Sovereign, in reality though in the case of a Sovereign ceasing to be a Sovereign I don't think (in most cases) they'd be in a strong position to get to keep it.
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Legally they would have a very strong case for owning it because they do own it. The income from it goes to the government, but the ownership of it remains with the queen. In practice, probably not.
 
Cryogenic said:
You are right, for some people it is not achievable if they have no desire to succeed:

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You make it sound like only those who have no desire to succeed fail. You really do talk a lot of piffle.
My brother in law went bust three times trying to make a go of his offshore medical supplies business. He had every desire to succeed. For the sake of his family and their security he took employment.
 
dowie said:
Working royals do get an annual salary. I'm not sure it is accurate to claim in general that they "own billions", the Queen's personal wealth tends to be valued in the hundreds of millions, though obviously she has additional income from and access to assets way beyond what she personally owns.

The day to day costs are paid from the 15% of the income from the Crown Estate that the government pays to the Queen. The Queen also gets an annual income from other means such as the Duchy of Lancaster - this trust is worth around 500 million IIRC, this income (about 20 million a year) is used for private expenditure.

Prince Charles similarly gets an annual income from the Duchy of Cornwall, this trust is worth more like 1 billion IIRC. He doesn't own it though nor have it for the whole of his life, when he gets the throne William will get an income from the Duchy of Cornwall and Charles will get one from the Duchy of Lancaster.
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Thanks for confirming, Wikipedia was not particularly succinct on this count.
 
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Teh_Next said:
You make it sound like only those who have no desire to succeed fail. You really do talk a lot of piffle.
My brother in law went bust three times trying to make a go of his offshore medical supplies business. He had every desire to succeed. For the sake of his family and their security he took employment.
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True, it is obviously better to try and fail then to not try at all. What you will find though is that the experience will have made him stronger, wiser, and smarter, and I am sure one day he will make it doing one thing or another. Maybe he could try the business online, or bring in a connected partner whilst still working? I have a medical supplies company locally and they employ tons of people to ship and package every day.

I was simply referring to those who have zero desire to do well, and are happy to just float in life, and smile, cheer and clap when the royals drive past in a Bentley (or something) like complete simpletons
 
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