The state of the IT industry
- Thread starter Basher
- Start date
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 17 Feb 2003
- Posts
- 29,640
- Location
- Chelmsford
actaully thinking about it.. There's a lot of **** programmers out there. Just because a graduate can code, doesn't mean he's a programmer.
The amount of people we interview and there's not many that come back for second interview. We're looking for a decent C++ programmer and It's taken months (please don't email me ok). The search goes on and on. On asking one candidate recently, we asked him what post documentation he provides when completing his tasks?
" I don't need to, I know how my programs work".
Bye Bye!
and this is what it's come down to..
The amount of people we interview and there's not many that come back for second interview. We're looking for a decent C++ programmer and It's taken months (please don't email me ok). The search goes on and on. On asking one candidate recently, we asked him what post documentation he provides when completing his tasks?
" I don't need to, I know how my programs work".
Bye Bye!
and this is what it's come down to..
- Joined
- 31 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 5,172
- Location
- Barrow-In-Furness
I left college this year and luckily I do have a job in IT, but i'm worried that my lack of a degree will limit me eventually.
I do play on studying one part-time though so I can learn and keep gaining experience.
I do play on studying one part-time though so I can learn and keep gaining experience.
Haha.
And yes, the company I work for struggles to find decent C++ programmers too. It seems a lot of companies are looking for the talent but aren't willing to train them. Getting your foot in the door is hard, but once you've got experience then getting other jobs is easy. I've even been stalked by recruiters on Facebook.
Arrogant ******* who think they know it all that dissappear off the face of the earth once royalties have been paid out, leaving all the bug fixes to the other poor buggers.
Sure, there are lots of **** programmers out there, but it also annoys me that there are fewer and fewer companies out there that seem willing to train people.
Just remember, always try to understand the concepts behind whatever it is you're doing and you'll be fine. Don't limit your skills only to being able to use the technology you are now (ASP.NET from some of your other posts), if you understand the concepts rather than just knowing the syntax you need to accomplish a task then you'll be a good developer one day
The worst developers in the world are the ones who can't transfer their skills/knowledge between different languages/technologies and take years to pick up anything new. Being able to learn and adapt is a skill within itself, sadly it's one that many developers don't have
Mick.
- Joined
- 31 Dec 2003
- Posts
- 5,172
- Location
- Barrow-In-Furness
Just remember, always try to understand the concepts behind whatever it is you're doing and you'll be fine. Don't limit your skills only to being able to use the technology you are now (ASP.NET from some of your other posts), if you understand the concepts rather than just knowing the syntax you need to accomplish a task then you'll be a good developer one day
The worst developers in the world are the ones who can't transfer their skills/knowledge between different languages/technologies and take years to pick up anything new. Being able to learn and adapt is a skill within itself, sadly it's one that many developers don't have
Mick.
I'm not specifically a developer and the area I want to be in ultimately in networking and network security.
Thanks for the advice, I do have a good understanding on the concepts of programming and the logic behind it but i'll hands up admit i'm not great with the syntax and specific knowledge at the moment.
Fortunately i'm in a company that is willing to train staff and does so constantly
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 17 Feb 2003
- Posts
- 29,640
- Location
- Chelmsford
Training not a problem here.. but a lot of it comes down to common sense. Good interviewing can convince a company to take you on and they won't be wasting their money, despite the qualifications.
Soldato
- Joined
- 16 Nov 2003
- Posts
- 9,682
- Location
- On the pale blue dot
Experience, experience, experience! That was my main stumbling block looking for jobs out of University.
I don't understand why it is difficult to get a job in IT though if you have little experience, there are thousands out there you just have to lower your expectations. There are tonnes of first line helpdesk jobs, monkey work etc going that are a first step up but they pay pap and work you hard. When I worked for quite a large IT firm, there were a tonne of grads on first line, waiting to show to people that they should be promoted into a better role.
I suppose the other issue is that margins can be tight, profits are hard to make and thus buying in more staff eats into that profit.
Oh and I disagree to some extent about MSCE/A etc being worthless. Yes you need to combine it with experience for it to be useful but a lot of companies want people who are qualified, so when they try and get business and the question is asked about the staff's experience, as well as showing past work you can say they have x, y, z industry standard qualifications. They also help towards partner programmes and the like.
I don't understand why it is difficult to get a job in IT though if you have little experience, there are thousands out there you just have to lower your expectations. There are tonnes of first line helpdesk jobs, monkey work etc going that are a first step up but they pay pap and work you hard. When I worked for quite a large IT firm, there were a tonne of grads on first line, waiting to show to people that they should be promoted into a better role.
I suppose the other issue is that margins can be tight, profits are hard to make and thus buying in more staff eats into that profit.
Oh and I disagree to some extent about MSCE/A etc being worthless. Yes you need to combine it with experience for it to be useful but a lot of companies want people who are qualified, so when they try and get business and the question is asked about the staff's experience, as well as showing past work you can say they have x, y, z industry standard qualifications. They also help towards partner programmes and the like.
I'm sure it isn't a problem at your company, but it seems to be elsewhere. I haven't experienced it personally mind, but I know a lot who have.
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 14,312
- Location
- Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge
A lot of the places I've worked would prefer you to provide minimal documentation simply so you can move on to the next project as quickly as possible. It's not normally the developers fault applications aren't documented adequately. If the company decides they want more code and less documentation, so be it.
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 15 Feb 2006
- Posts
- 1,872
- Location
- hell
There are loads of IT jobs out there and several training schemes available to people who will train you for free and PLACE you into a company doing IT.
My experience was being a waiter / sales assistant in retail and I passed the EDS assessment day, was awaiting a placement when I found another job.
www.fdmacademy.com is another program I was on for a while, where they train you up for free (although you'll likely have to relocate to go to the training centres) then they place you into a good company for various IT roles.
I don't have comp sci degree, or any real IT skills other than im quick to learn most IT related things and I'm sure that if I wanted to I could get a job in IT.
My experience was being a waiter / sales assistant in retail and I passed the EDS assessment day, was awaiting a placement when I found another job.
www.fdmacademy.com is another program I was on for a while, where they train you up for free (although you'll likely have to relocate to go to the training centres) then they place you into a good company for various IT roles.
I don't have comp sci degree, or any real IT skills other than im quick to learn most IT related things and I'm sure that if I wanted to I could get a job in IT.
Development work is one aspects of IT that can be outsourced pretty easily, no suprise that much of it has.
The IT industry hasn't changed one jot in the last 17 years i've been in it. Throughout that time there has always been something that is hot in the marketplace. Started with getting individual PC's networked to a server, then networking the servers together in larger networks, switched networks, directory services, then email, then the Internet, Y2K testing, SAN, and now virtualisation both server and storage.
The key to long term success in IT is being able to reinvent yourself every 3-5 years, and thats probably never going to change.
The IT industry hasn't changed one jot in the last 17 years i've been in it. Throughout that time there has always been something that is hot in the marketplace. Started with getting individual PC's networked to a server, then networking the servers together in larger networks, switched networks, directory services, then email, then the Internet, Y2K testing, SAN, and now virtualisation both server and storage.
The key to long term success in IT is being able to reinvent yourself every 3-5 years, and thats probably never going to change.
Soldato
- Joined
- 13 Dec 2006
- Posts
- 6,925
- Location
- On the forest moon Endor
In short, companies are selling out the UK industries to save cash money - I work for a company that's doing it right now and I despise them for it so I won't be hanging around here for much longer. Makes me sick to think that 20+ year seniorities are being made redundant so some shrink wrapped call centre moron in India can "do" his/her job. /rant off.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7057575.stm
Not wishing to de-rail this thread, just wanted to say i couldn't agree more with your above statement Randal
Back on topic. . . . .
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Oct 2004
- Posts
- 9,086
- Location
- Berkland
And no supprise that it often fails as well.
I point to two examples... 1) My new job and Pakistan, 2) Logica (pre cmg) and India
I dont think its hard to get an job in IT. I think where the issue lies is in the fact someone comes from uni and wants to start at 3rd line with no 1st/2nd line experince at all. They wont take anything less than 30K a year and struggle to find anything. im not saying lower your sights, but come on, would you let a uni grad rebuild your entire IT network as a project on his own? if not, dont emplye him as high as 3rd line as he should be able to do a job liek that, or at least know 80% of it.
Coding, cant coment, stoped at BBC Basic and asmebaler, bored me stupid... Ima contractor who loves geting under desks, in the server room, rebuilding and tweaking software for users. love it.
Then again, i guess there is a big diff from full time work and a contractor, but never give up hope. Just dont expect to earn a fortune on your 1st job.
ColiN - hope to see you all soon.... in France!
Coding, cant coment, stoped at BBC Basic and asmebaler, bored me stupid... Ima contractor who loves geting under desks, in the server room, rebuilding and tweaking software for users. love it.
Then again, i guess there is a big diff from full time work and a contractor, but never give up hope. Just dont expect to earn a fortune on your 1st job.
ColiN - hope to see you all soon.... in France!
Soldato
- Joined
- 10 Oct 2005
- Posts
- 8,706
- Location
- Nottingham
We're apparently getting our new graduate trainee on Monday ... I don't hold up much hope; in the last 10 years we've had maybe three which i would consider any good and probably three times that who just think they can walk in and immediately do everything .... this is in a large complex Unix environment which they know absolutely nothing about. We even had one throw a strop as we would not let her go oncall straight away, (something you need to be here a year before you are considered for as you need to have the experience on the systems to be able to wake up at 2am, diagnose an issue and fix it without screwing up). As for "graduate consultants" ... my cousin was one and I wouldn't her near any of our systems with her knowledge ... come back in a few years when you have some experience with 1st/2nd line level work.
The other problems I see at the moment are (1) lack of training for existing staff even when we desperately need it, (2) introduction of management processes which just make our work harder and harder to do and (3) offshoring, (while the people our company employs offshore are nice enough, they are nowhere near technically competent).
Not that I'm ranting due to having had a bad day due to incompetent offshore staff and management rubbish ....
The other problems I see at the moment are (1) lack of training for existing staff even when we desperately need it, (2) introduction of management processes which just make our work harder and harder to do and (3) offshoring, (while the people our company employs offshore are nice enough, they are nowhere near technically competent).
Not that I'm ranting due to having had a bad day due to incompetent offshore staff and management rubbish ....
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 30 Jun 2005
- Posts
- 9,515
- Location
- London Town!
The problem is there are a mass of underskilled people out there, everybody without a job moans they can't get one, everyone I interview is rubbish. I've no idea why this ocuntry is incapable of producing decent candidates...