the UK now for not listening to....

Muffin` said:
basmic
PermaBanned
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I didn't know basmic was permabanned. For some reason I found it amusing that he felt the way he did... yet was gay. Surely he would have realised that unfair discrimination was totally illogical?

Wheres CBS these days, at least his posts were very well written, except when he went all phychologist on you :p
 
Freefaller said:
Again I agree with you in your last paragraph, and let me just re-itterate the sensible controlling of immigration is the key - not the fact that immigration is happening, that is not the issue. Enoch Powell whilst perhaps a clever man, was very short sighted and somewhat old fashioned.

Interesting link - I'll have a read.
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Without singling you out necessarily, what would you say in response to the disadvantages to controlled immigration. And they are numerous.

At worst, controlled immigration kills. In 6 years 2,000 immigrants have died at the US/Mexico border alone. It also forces immigration underground and plays into the hands of international criminals. It means we have thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants on our streets that the Government is unaware of. They can't get jobs, can't use hospitals, they can't contribute to the country.

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work in America in the 20's. It forced it underground, provided criminals with millions of dollars and did nothing to stem the trade.

And just like the war on drugs is worthless, so is trying to prevent the free movement of people. In my opinion of course.
 
I have to say, after reading the first few posts I was getting all ready to wonder in and start bashing people over the head with my copy of the guardian and spouting my usual liberal drivel but it's very reasonable...how strange!

Have to agree with Evangelion and Freefaller pretty much to the letter, they've made the point more eloquently than I could have managed.
 
Jet said:
Without singling you out necessarily, what would you say in response to the disadvantages to controlled immigration. And they are numerous.

At worst, controlled immigration kills. In 6 years 2,000 immigrants have died at the US/Mexico border alone. It also forces immigration underground and plays into the hands of international criminals. It means we have thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants on our streets that the Government is unaware of. They can't get jobs, can't use hospitals, they can't contribute to the country.

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work in America in the 20's. It forced it underground, provided criminals with millions of dollars and did nothing to stem the trade.

And just like the war on drugs is worthless, so is trying to prevent the free movement of people. In my opinion of course.
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The American immigration problem is entirely different to ours, you cant really use it to base an argument against controlled immigration.
 
willd58 said:
The American immigration problem is entirely different to ours, you cant really use it to base an argument against controlled immigration.
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Hundreds have died trying to get into the UK. Many more we never hear about. On the most basic level our immigration 'problem' is identical to that in the USA.

People want to reach our country to make a better life for themselves. They will do that whether we oppose it or not. Same as the USA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/3827623.stm - direct result of controlled immigration.
 
Jet said:
Without singling you out necessarily, what would you say in response to the disadvantages to controlled immigration. And they are numerous.

At worst, controlled immigration kills. In 6 years 2,000 immigrants have died at the US/Mexico border alone. It also forces immigration underground and plays into the hands of international criminals. It means we have thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants on our streets that the Government is unaware of. They can't get jobs, can't use hospitals, they can't contribute to the country.

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work in America in the 20's. It forced it underground, provided criminals with millions of dollars and did nothing to stem the trade.

And just like the war on drugs is worthless, so is trying to prevent the free movement of people. In my opinion of course.
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Firstly, the American/Mexican situation is entirely different to the UK situation. The two scenarios are not comparable.

Secondly, Mexicans won't die if they don't try to struggle across a desert in the vain hope of entering the USA illegally. It's very easy to remain alive by staying home in Mexico; nobody's holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to march into the desert. You make your choice; you live (or die) with the consequences.

Thirdly, the UK is an island (albeit linked to Europe via the Chunnel) and therefore more difficult to enter. Consequently, it does not face the same numbers of illegal immigrants as the US.

Fourthly, immigration with no controls whatsoever is a nightmare scenario. Would you abolish passports? Would you introduce legislation that permits people to enter any country they like without permission, registration, or statement of purpose? Immigration and emigration both need to be controlled.

Fifthly, there will always be a criminal element that exploits illegal immigrants, no matter how casual the immigration laws are. You can't just say "We should let everyone in regardless of who they are, where they've come from, and what they intend to do here."

Sixthly, illegal immigrants can always find work; in fact, that's a big part of the problem. They take on gruelling jobs under horrific conditions, and suffer because the state doesn't even know they exist. Meanwhile, some rich ******* is profiting handsomely from their misery.

I don't believe you've actually presented a case against controlled immigration. In fact, all you've done is to highlight the need to clamp down on illegal immigration by tightening the controls.
 
Jet said:
Hundreds have died trying to get into the UK. Many more we never hear about. On the most basic level our immigration 'problem' is identical to that in the USA.
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How exactly are you defining the problem? What is the problem, in your eyes?

People want to reach our country to make a better life for themselves. They will do that whether we oppose it or not. Same as the USA.
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What's your solution? Do you have one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/3827623.stm - direct result of controlled immigration.
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No, that is not the direct result of controlled immigration. That is the direct result of illegal immigration.

And I can guarantee that 100% of people who remain in their own countries, do not die in the back of Dutch lorries whilst attempting to enter the UK illegally, or drown on the shores of Morecambe Bay.
 
Evangelion said:
Firstly, the American/Mexican situation is entirely different to the UK situation. The two scenarios are not comparable.

Secondly, Mexicans won't die if they don't try to struggle across a desert in the vain hope of entering the USA illegally. It's very easy to remain alive by staying home in Mexico; nobody's holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to march into the desert. You make your choice; you live (or die) with the consequences.
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Of course they won't but what sort of point is that? Extreme point but no one would drop litter if the punishment was life in prison. That's not a fair or moral reaction so we don't do it. It's easy to remain out of prison if you don't drop litter. Hardly a great point is it.

Thirdly, the UK is an island (albeit linked to Europe via the Chunnel) and therefore more difficult to enter. Consequently, it does not face the same numbers of illegal immigrants as the US.
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Of course and because it's more difficult to enter this means people taking more risks or resorting to criminals to get them in. The USA have a fence and can patrol a border. How exactly are we going to seal the UK's coastline?

Fourthly, immigration with no controls whatsoever is a nightmare scenario. Would you abolish passports? Would you introduce legislation that permits people to enter any country they like without permission, registration, or statement of purpose? Immigration and emigration both need to be controlled.
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Nope. My solution is open borders where everyone who wants to enter can enter through the front door. Everyone would be controlled (in a sense) since we'd know who everyone was, how many people were here, etc. We could concentrate on keeping the real bad people out rather than being stretched so far that we can't even keep the law abiding people out. There would be no deaths on the way, no need for criminal gangs, no possibility of exploitation, no lost taxes, more money to stop the bad people, etc.

Fifthly, there will always be a criminal element that exploits illegal immigrants, no matter how casual the immigration laws are. You can't just say "We should let everyone in regardless of who they are, where they've come from, and what they intend to do here."
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Why would you resort to a criminal gang to get into a country when you could walk in through the front door? Second point is wrong because I never said that. Are there many illegal alcohol smugglers in the UK these days?

Sixthly, illegal immigrants can always find work; in fact, that's a big part of the problem. They take on gruelling jobs under horrific conditions, and suffer because the state doesn't even know they exist. Meanwhile, some rich ******* is profiting handsomely from their misery.
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That's an argument for open borders. Without such a thing as illegal immigrants people wouldn't be exploited. The same way natives aren't exploited like this. They could just tell the police. When I said work, I meant legal work, paying taxes and the like.

I don't believe you've actually presented a case against controlled immigration. In fact, all you've done is to highlight the need to clamp down on illegal immigration by tightening the controls.
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Absolutely impossible. Do you think tightening the controls on illegal drugs would help too? Because decades of statistics would disagree.

How exactly are you defining the problem? What is the problem, in your eyes?
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The 'problem', is immigrants trying to enter the country.

What's your solution? Do you have one?
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Yes. Read above.

No, that is not the direct result of controlled immigration. That is the direct result of illegal immigration.

And I can guarantee that 100% of people who remain in their own countries, do not die in the back of Dutch lorries whilst attempting to enter the UK illegally, or drown on the shores of Morecambe Bay.
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And illegal immigration is created by the government. The only reason there are illegal immigrants is because we control immigration.

You can guarantee anything you like, in the real world people do what they like. And they aren't going to watch their family struggle just because the UK government says they can't come here.
 
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