the UK now for not listening to....

Angilion said:
Where did you find an Englishman of Anglo-Saxon descent? Considering the degree of mixing with Britons (who had already mixed with Romans), Scandanavians, French (Normans), maybe Picts, probably some Irish, French again some centuries later...and why merge Angles and Saxons anyway, while we're on the subject - England is Angleland...with all that, I wouldn't bet much money on their being anyone alive today who is of only Anglo-Saxon descent.

England has been as mixed as a bowl of lobby for two millenia.
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Thanks for deconstructing it quite so adeptly :)

I do agree that there are unlikely to be any still living who can point to a "pure" lineage, restricted solely to one "tribe". 'Twas just a pithy attempt to show the absurdity of a modern-day anti-immigration stance (fuelled by bigotry), when the very culture such people are trying to protect is the result of immigration over time.
 
Tefal said:
I don't under stand what you mean by "no they wouldn't " then?

Are you saying a troll, won't get banned here, or that someone that posts personal attacks wont:confused:
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I meant the moderators.

Seems AJUK has gotten all emotional again. When you decide to reply, try a rationale response of some sort.

Fantastic posts Evangelion and Freefaller. Whole heartedly agree.
 
willd58 said:
For a man of honour you don't half talk rubbish.
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Don't make the mistake of thinking it is any guarantee of quality, just look at me. ;) :)

I would however say that the benefits of immigration outweigh the disadvantages, certainly for me they do although perhaps some control/criteria (as has recently been implemented) is necessary to prevent absolute unchecked immigration.
 
semi-pro waster said:
Don't make the mistake of thinking it is any guarantee of quality, just look at me. ;) :)
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And me :o

Obviously there have to be workable controls (better than the present ones, for obvious reasons). That's why it's important to have an open and honest debate without the scaremongering and hysteria whipped up by the media and the bigotry (and sometimes outright racism) of the "send 'em home" camp.

It would be foolish in the extreme to think we didn't need any of these people - we do. We need them to plug the skills gap we have as well as labour to do the jobs our growing number of work shy layabouts can't be bothered to do.
 
Wang Computer said:
It's ones fear of being branded a bigot that prevents this country from having serious debate on the merits of recent mass-immigration.
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No it isn't, the debate has been had, the anti immigration idiots lost it quite badly, the sensible limited immigration seems to have won over most people.

Crying about being branded a racist is very similar to when a black man is arrested for a crime and cries out "its just because im black your racist!!", no, its because you were committing a crime old fella, its got nothing to do with your race. Much in the same way that one is branded a bigot and a fool for not wanting immigration or any kind of diversity.
 
I consider myself very open minded and love the ease and cheapness of travel to see how the other man lives. Lets face it though, without sounding too proud we are loosing our identity as "British" / "English" / "Scottish"/ "Welsh" or what ever you consider yourself.
This is mainly due to britian becoming so multi-cultural. Now on paper we could definately say that it is a good thing as surely it would bring people from different races/cultures closer? Cleary not though as most still go about there life as if they weren't living here and don't always respect our culture. I say fair enough they are probably a small portion, right and they are the minority? This is where the problem lies for me, without sounding racist (hard in this pc obsessed world fs) I consider the british race WHITE. Is that so wrong? If you were referring to an African, would you assume he was white or black. The same goes for someone Chinese or Indian etc etc etc. That isn't racist ..... example: I'm not saying an indian cannot be Scottish (having been born here) but they are still indian. Only war can change how race is, it is built on respect from the ground up. That is the problem and another post lol.

Anyway what I'm trying to say in this badly typed post (soz hehe) is that I don't have anything against integration (lets face it, they come here as its an easy ride and i'd probably do the same), but it only really works if those coming in want to be integrated (ie "british") and not some "quasi-type". We have to stop making exceptions and protecting the minority!!!!

Basically the life of the many outway the lives of the few or the one ;) The White man is apparently the "many" but is cast the few and far between. Britian is quickly becoming a joke, great country with spiriling problems and a govt. that wont make drastic change due to only caring about their next term in office and in their constant search for voters they have to look elsewhere as there aren't enough brits voting.

sigh
/rant

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KZTdMVWhbHA&feature=related
 
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and0r said:
without sounding racist (hard in this pc obsessed world fs) I consider the british race WHITE.
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That doesn't sound racist at all.

The racist word is thrown around perhaps a bit too easily, but sometimes its clear when certain members have those intentions. A few of them even admit it.
 
and0r said:
This is where the problem lies for me, without sounding racist (hard in this pc obsessed world fs) I consider the british race WHITE. Is that so wrong? If you were referring to an African, would you assume he was white or black. The same goes for someone Chinese or Indian etc etc etc. That isn't racist ..... example: I'm not saying an indian cannot be Scottish (having been born here) but they are still indian. Only war changes race, it is built on respect from the ground up. That is the problem and another post lol.
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I think you may be confusing yourself here, British is not a race, it is a nationality and no I don't think colour has anything to do with nationality or at least not on any important level. People from Britain (or any other non-sunny country) tend to be paler for the purposes of gaining vitamin D from the limited sun there is, that is simply an evolutionary adaptation.

and0r said:
Anyway what I'm trying to say in this badly typed post (soz hehe) is that I don't have anything against integration (lets face it, they come here as its an easy ride and i'd probably do the same), but it only really works if those coming in want to be integrated (ie "british") and not some "quasi-type". We have to stop making exceptions and protecting the minority!!!!
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Who comes here because they want an easy ride? Some people doubtless do but you can't just label all immigrants as being the same. Oh and the idea of not protecting minorities (in any circumstances appears to be the implication) is a very dangerous and foolish one, if you'll excuse the bad paraphrasing one of the measures of a civilisation is how it treats its minorities.

and0r said:
Basically the life of the many outway the lives of the few or the one ;) The White man is apparently the "many" but is cast the few and far between. Britian is quickly becoming a joke, great country with spiriling problems and a govt. that wont make drastic change due to only caring about their next term in office and in their constant search for voters they have to look elsewhere as there aren't enough brits voting.

sigh
/rant
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The greatest good for the greatest number is an idea I can get along with but not at the expense of forgetting about everyone else. Horace Greely said it best with "I am the inferior of any man whose right I trample underfoot".

You have the problem of 'short-termism' with any government that works on elected terms and popularity - one solution to that is to never have elections and see how well that works for other countries, perhaps best not go down that road.
 
semi-pro waster said:
I think you may be confusing yourself here, British is not a race, it is a nationality and no I don't think colour has anything to do with nationality or at least not on any important level. People from Britain (or any other non-sunny country) tend to be paler for the purposes of gaining vitamin D from the limited sun there is, that is simply an evolutionary adaptation.
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I think he was simply stating that Britain traditionally is a white nation, nothing more.
 
Nitefly said:
I think he was simply stating that Britain traditionally is a white nation, nothing more.
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Thanks dude.

To answer semi-pro (thanks for your reply), yes I do believe we need to start thinking more long term. It is important to think about our future as it affects not only our future generations but more short term our way of life. Now I know that britian isn't a race but what im getting at is it consists of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island (white race traditionally, no?). Now if we start to include everyone else in that formula, then you might as well say everyone is automatically "british" when they come here (forget about visas and passports). So where does the national identity go, there is no variation. Britian might not be a race but its definately an identity.

The only way forward is for the govt. to put in place proper procedures for immagration and ID cards. This country is rife with criminals from all over europe and we have no way of knowing this as they can basically start a new life here.

Now I'm aware things are never going to be perfect with democracy (infact far from it but its the best thing we can come up with at the moment), but I happen to think there is much room for improvement. We just can't have it all ways though, we either take away some human rights of those coming in or do the same to those already here.

It just comes down to this "political correctness" issue. People can't get past it and as soon as we try to have a sensible debate, everyone jumps on the racist bandwagon (which undoubtedly causes all this racial tension and lack of progress.) Now is it wrong to want to protect our culture? I hope oneday we don't have a world where only one language is spoken, one currency used and one plain way of life.

This = Boring (we seem to be pushing for it though, although no one really wants it. So it doesn't work.)

The problem of racism is always going to be there, it all comes down to respect. You cant change that by forcing it to happen ... that only causes more tension. You are always going to upset someone when you change something for someone else. Those in power need to stop medeling and allow things to take their natural course!

Variation is the spice of life my friend (so I don't mind integration when its done correctly and protects those already staying here) :)
 
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and0r said:
Thanks dude.

To answer semi-pro (thanks for your reply), yes I do believe we need to start thinking more long term. It is important to think about our future as it affects not only our future generations but more short term our way of life. Now I know that britian isn't a race but what im getting at is it consists of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island (white race traditionally, no?). Now if we start to include everyone else in that formula, then you might as well say everyone is automatically "british" when they come here (forget about visas and passports). So where does the national identity go, there is no variation. Britian might not be a race but its definately an identity.
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Britain is traditionally white, sure but I still don't see why it matters. I've got a pretty simple view on this - if you consider yourself British then you are. Obviously that doesn't transpose easily in a legal sense as people will always 'play the system' but for the purposes of defining nationality it does for me. I've got my doubts that national identity would disappear just because we go from a predominantly white country to a country with many different colours of people in it - colour seems a very arbitrary metric to base your thoughts on what people think, say or do. I'd have to say that shared values such as respect for others, tolerance etc are much more valuable to me than what people look like.

and0r said:
The only way forward is for the govt. to put in place proper procedures for immagration and ID cards. This country is rife with criminals from all over europe and we have no way of knowing this as they can basically start a new life here.
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Ok on the first part, I've got no real arguments against having a well thought out and coherant immigration policy. Most definitely not to the second but maybe you can give me a decent argument as to the benefits of ID cards, there are a couple but none that seem anywhere close to justifying either the cost or the infringement of civil liberties.

and0r said:
Now I'm aware things are never going to be perfect with democracy (infact far from it but its the best thing we can come up with at the moment), but I happen to think there is much room for improvement. We just can't have it all ways though, we either take away some human rights of those coming in or do the same to those already here.
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I'm not sure I follow here - why are we taking away human rights and to what end?

and0r said:
It just comes down to this "political correctness" issue. People can't get past it and as soon as we try to have a sensible debate, everyone jumps on the racist bandwagon (which undoubtedly causes all this racial tension and lack of progress.) Now is it wrong to want to protect our culture? I hope oneday we don't have a world where only one language is spoken, one currency used and one plain way of life.

This = Boring (we seem to be pushing for it though, although no one really wants it. So it doesn't work.)

The problem of racism is always going to be there, it all comes down to respect. You cant change that by forcing it to happen ... that only causes more tension. You are always going to upset someone when you change something for someone else. Those in power need to stop medeling and allow things to take their natural course!

Variation is the spice of life my friend (so I don't mind integration when its done correctly and protects those already staying here) :)
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This is where we differ, I don't think that immigration inevitably leads to erosion of British culture (we'll assume for a second that it does exist, many happy hours have been spent in SC trying to define that particular enigma) but like language culture adapts and absorbs - hopefully the best parts of other cultures but that isn't always possible.
 
and0r said:
Variation is the spice of life my friend (so I don't mind integration when its done correctly and protects those already staying here) :)
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Why bring up the notion of having to "protect" those that are already here? I have not seen an instance of foreigner's rights coming before or at the decrement of anyone else's.
 
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