The extra pension contributions sounds decent then. But £3k is small amount for what you are giving up - how long is your current tenure?
This Business and Moment...
- Thread starter randomshenans
- Start date
Caporegime
2.5 years in current post. The only reason I'm even considering this is future prospects and earning potential. It will completely change our family balance.
As would working in an office 4 days a week.
Surely there are other places hiring with less 90’s mentality? Just wait out for the right role which suits you and your family. £3k pay rise for being in the office 4 days a week doesn’t seem to be the right path to me.
Soldato
So is a "standup" meeting EVER actually used as intended?
Our daily "Quick standup" often runs past 15 minutes with just a few individuals having taken up 5 minutes each. Maybe I'm just being a bit special thinking a standup should be a standup not a chat/deeper debate.
I've just had a couple of weekly 30 min meetings added to my calendar called "xyz standup". Hmmm, no they're not.
Our daily "Quick standup" often runs past 15 minutes with just a few individuals having taken up 5 minutes each. Maybe I'm just being a bit special thinking a standup should be a standup not a chat/deeper debate.
I've just had a couple of weekly 30 min meetings added to my calendar called "xyz standup". Hmmm, no they're not.
I guess it depends on what those individuals are saying in those 5 mins. If they're just randomly babbling, then yes it's a waste.
My updates on daily stand ups can vary from a few seconds (Working on ticket X. No blockers), to several minutes if I'm working on something more complex. Quite often I'll ask a question that triggers a bit of a debate, but if that goes on for more than a few minutes, someone normally calls out to say take it to a separate chat. I think that works perfectly.
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I got fed up of them, 15mins, everyday for something which could be put in a email.
"Let's take this [conversation] offline"
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Don't do it. Far too small a raise given the (mis-sold) change in working pattern.
Yes they can be, it depends on various factors:
- Does the standup have a proper facilitator that knows how to focus on the right things?
- Is the stand-up appropriately sized i.e. less than a dozen attendees?
- Are people communicating effectively outside of the standup, or saving everything up to talk about on the daily call?
- Is 'standup' just being used in some cases as a word to represent recurring catch-up meetings (e.g. these weekly 30min calls - do they have an agenda / ToR?)
- Are there other ceromonies in place to discuss others things or is the standup being used as a catch-all?
- Do the attendees hogging the mic know the expected routine? Is anyone calling them out on their repeated monologues? Going back to the first point - if this is happening frequently, is the facilitator utilising timers etc to promote discipline?
- I mention facilitator, but really it should be self-organising. Those engaging in the conversation should be actively recognising where a topic needs longer than a minute (e.g. explaining and solutionising resolution of an issue) and saying they will take it offline.
Soldato
I think the majority of the issue is this. None of these people are software types/Agile experienced (I've been on a SW team so understand the Agile concepts a bit more rigidly). Plus the 1 or 2 who always run over by several minutes are just undisciplined and older types.
And then yes, we get dragged into questions and answers and a debate, and this is where people need the discipline to say "This clearly warrants discussion on its own". It's not a strictly Agile team at all, but for me if it's called standup it should be treated as such. Call it morning kickoff if you just want to let everyone ramble for the allotted time. It's not my meeting and the head of the meeting (my boss) relies on it a bit too much as his touch point for the team, as he's busy. So tends to come in with quite broad questions.
Then I won't comment on the fact our satellite office has 3 employees and I can't seem to persuade them to all be in one space for the call so, they end up joining from different corners of one office!
Caporegime
Agree in principle but I've been "invited" (not optional) to two meetings down in Hampshire HQ just next week.
This is getting more frequent and I think the net is closing in for their remote workers, so it might be time to jump ship anyway to a large (and frankly better) local company before I'm pushed.
Don't think I've been in such a difficult dilemma since I started my career. I need to be careful and play it well or I'll end up with neither!
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Is the satellite office adequately setup for logistics of having them all in one place with good audio and visibility of screensharing / collab apps? To be honest, I'd prefer to join a remote standup from my desk rather than huddled round some screen somewhere, as the benefits of being physically present are reduced if the majority of participants are in a different location.
You used the term "HATE" (in caps) earlier to describe the idea of working in an office so if you are considering this you need to negotiate hard. Obviously don't bring the fact you aren't keen on office work up as that could be a red flag, rather use the fact the location was mis-advertised (Hybrid/Remote != 4 days per week in office) as leverage, explain that £3k uplift in salary is significantly short of an acceptable level given you'll be facing a pay-cut in real terms once you've accounted for the cost and time involved in travelling, and that's leaving the natural not unrealistic expectation of a raise for taking on a more senior job to one side. You can remain positive about the role and company and explain that you are keen for a way to make this work, but it's just not feasible with the offer on the table.
So it's sort of like, look, this is a more senior role, if I was taking this sort of role at my current company I'd be looking at perhaps £10k uplift. I like what you guys are doing and am keen to be a part of that, and I recognise the value in the benefits on offer [pre-empt this because they / the agent will try to argue this offsets the low salary] but given the requirement to travel four days a week, I'm basically breaking even on income after travel expenses, and losing 6hrs a week to travel which will impact our childcare expenses [regardless of whether you expect it to or not]. Based on our discussions at interview I know I can bring a lot of value in XYZ areas and am keen to get involved, what can we do to make this work for all parties on the remuneration front?
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Soldato
No visuals necessary really, it's just a verbal discussion 99% of days. When we had 4 people in this office it was just ridiculous trying to hear your own computer over anyone else not using headphones. I usually set my laptop on a shelf and we three gather around that, with 2-4 people remotely joining from home.
I think the solution might be to have an on-premises standup to see what we're doing here and agree resource etc, and then one or more of us can join that wider call to report it in.
So to me that huddling round a laptop on a shelf in an open office sounds pretty terrible on the face of it having done similar in the past, the audio is probably poor at times for the remote people compared to if everyone was using a headset. But I appreciate your colleagues will know better than me for this specific situation 
Years ago in a similar scenario where the majority were huddled in corner of our office around a big screen, we even got some fancy £800 conference microphone thingy and it still wasn't great. It's the sort of scenario I've written about in the past in terms of the pitfalls of hybrid meetings (compared to full onsite/full remote).
Years ago in a similar scenario where the majority were huddled in corner of our office around a big screen, we even got some fancy £800 conference microphone thingy and it still wasn't great. It's the sort of scenario I've written about in the past in terms of the pitfalls of hybrid meetings (compared to full onsite/full remote).
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If you don't have a $1M+ dedicated Cisco telepresence system in an acoustically controlled room with blast-like doors for sound isolation, you're doing teleconferences wrong. /s
Seriously though, a past tech employer had some amazing Cisco telepresence kit in special rooms that made video calls with offices in other countries a relative breeze. I could easily have meetings and talk with colleagues from Australia, South Korea, Europe, and other places, just like my colleagues were just down the hall or in another local building.
It's too bad that companies don't tend to invest in good teleconference equipment, yet expect you to be able to have productive calls with a mix of local and remote folks from around the country or even the world.
Seriously though, a past tech employer had some amazing Cisco telepresence kit in special rooms that made video calls with offices in other countries a relative breeze. I could easily have meetings and talk with colleagues from Australia, South Korea, Europe, and other places, just like my colleagues were just down the hall or in another local building.
It's too bad that companies don't tend to invest in good teleconference equipment, yet expect you to be able to have productive calls with a mix of local and remote folks from around the country or even the world.
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Caporegime
After some back and forth / haggling over the last two days they have upped their offer by £8k, which whilst not massive, is enough to make me happy given the other benefits, culture, and working environment (which is worth a lot to me).
I would also like to add that I emailed them with some wording along the lines of the above and they called me back and offered the same day, so I guess I owe you 8k! *
Edit - should have said - thank you for the great advice!
* ZWL
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Glad it worked out for you I only charge 15% commission so it's just £1.2k, thx.
In general, I think people sometimes overlook negotiation as an opportunity to mentally reinforce the idea that you are a good fit and keen on the role, and are just looking to remove financial blockers to joining, rather than getting too caught up with a generic "I'm awesome, gimme more dosh innit m8" which they've probably heard a variant of a dozen times already this year and doesn't given them the positive reinforcement that they've picked the right candidate, and hence perhaps don't warrant much of an increased offer.
I only charge 15% commission so it's just £1.2k, thx.In general, I think people sometimes overlook negotiation as an opportunity to mentally reinforce the idea that you are a good fit and keen on the role, and are just looking to remove financial blockers to joining, rather than getting too caught up with a generic "I'm awesome, gimme more dosh innit m8" which they've probably heard a variant of a dozen times already this year and doesn't given them the positive reinforcement that they've picked the right candidate, and hence perhaps don't warrant much of an increased offer.
Man of Honour
Not for me, but some of my friends are looking for job opportunities abroad. Either Middle East, Europe, Canada, NZ or Aus, but perhaps Singapore and HK.
I'm not sure on the recruitment game as I've only ever moved via recommendations or head hunting. Is LinkedIn still the best place to find international roles? Or are recruitment consultants the right way to go? Any companies to avoid? I guess they don't want their data shared like made by recruitment companies but perhaps that's a good way to do things?
I'm not sure on the recruitment game as I've only ever moved via recommendations or head hunting. Is LinkedIn still the best place to find international roles? Or are recruitment consultants the right way to go? Any companies to avoid? I guess they don't want their data shared like made by recruitment companies but perhaps that's a good way to do things?
I always used LinkedIn when looking for international roles.
Posted here recently about a junior employee recieving a larger bonus, thanks for all the insights and responses I got to that. I've pondered over it!
Just came out of my secondary interview for a job with the same commute, same WFH, but better benefits and despite not negotiating the salary yet, is looking like a minimum of £10k payrise if I get it.
Interview went well, I'm happy with getting the experience and at least being in the running for these sorts of jobs, shows I'm not miles away from where I think I should be, even if I don't get the job.
All of it to say is thanks for the responses before, especially when someone said go out and be Maverick or something
lit a fire...
Just came out of my secondary interview for a job with the same commute, same WFH, but better benefits and despite not negotiating the salary yet, is looking like a minimum of £10k payrise if I get it.
Interview went well, I'm happy with getting the experience and at least being in the running for these sorts of jobs, shows I'm not miles away from where I think I should be, even if I don't get the job.
All of it to say is thanks for the responses before, especially when someone said go out and be Maverick or something
lit a fire...
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It's time to be the star of the show, not just the wingman.All of it to say is thanks for the responses before, especially when someone said go out and be Maverick or something