Ah man, that's ****, but I'm sure it'll line you up to something better!
This Business and Moment...
- Thread starter randomshenans
- Start date
Ah mate that's crap.
Hope you land on your feet and find something better to move onto.
Thanks,
Yeah, I hope so. I have already been looking into going self-employed, consulting, contracting, etc. For the past few months.
Every couple of years, I keep on being reminded I should take the leap. As everyone knows the job market is crap worldwide at the moment. So I could be in for another uphill battle.
Caporegime
Soldato
I meant more whether there are good jobs for ladies out there given the somewhat male oriented society!
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Man of Honour
Oh! Yes it's getting more progressive (within reason from their perspective). Lots of start ups are now led by women there surprisingly especially in the tech world. As a westerner she'd probably find a role if she wanted to as they are keen on the experience.
Soldato
That's pretty good then. It would be an interesting and valuable (£££) place to work!
Yep, Ive been out of UK for five and a half years. I still enjoy my life where I am at the moment, despite this small mishap.
Soldato
First job offer in - 30% pay rise which I wasn’t expecting! The other company said they’re going to make an offer but wouldn’t be until Monday so need to decide over the weekend which way I want to go - Finance Manager in an SME or Senior Accountant in a plc.
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 45,962
Only a few days left to decide whether I want to keep this promotion and actually interview for it. I’m sure I’ll get back into it on Monday, but financially it’s disproportionate for the level of work needed and how much I need to spend in my own life to make it manageable, I could imagine needing a gardener and spending more on recreation and relaxation, at which point you wonder what actually is the point.
Soldato
Last time I turned down a promotion (because they failed to define the role) the guy who eventually got hired for it didn't want someone there who was offered his job so bullied me out. I say this because if someone else (unknown person) will end up above you then "what actually is the point" is to defend yourself against that scenario.
Soldato
Think I’ve decided which job to go for - I haven’t actually got the offer yet for the second one but they said I would get one. I assume it’ll be less money than the first offer though.
1st job
Pros - I know my boss already and enjoyed working with them before, I know the system already (NetSuite), the company is profitable.
Cons - slightly longer commute (but have multiple options; driving or bus and train) and gonna be some serious imposter syndrome to start with as I’ve never formally managed a team before.
2nd job
Pros - bigger company (FTSE350), sounds mentally more interesting since it’s a technical role.
Cons - not yet profitable, can only commute by driving, not sure I’ll enjoy being just a cog in a bigger team, possibly too corporate which I have very little patience for.
So assuming the 2nd job offer is less money than the first, I think my mind is made up. The CFO who interviewed me last also said they might sell their office and go fully remote soon in which case the slightly longer commute is no longer a con.
1st job
Pros - I know my boss already and enjoyed working with them before, I know the system already (NetSuite), the company is profitable.
Cons - slightly longer commute (but have multiple options; driving or bus and train) and gonna be some serious imposter syndrome to start with as I’ve never formally managed a team before.
2nd job
Pros - bigger company (FTSE350), sounds mentally more interesting since it’s a technical role.
Cons - not yet profitable, can only commute by driving, not sure I’ll enjoy being just a cog in a bigger team, possibly too corporate which I have very little patience for.
So assuming the 2nd job offer is less money than the first, I think my mind is made up. The CFO who interviewed me last also said they might sell their office and go fully remote soon in which case the slightly longer commute is no longer a con.
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Soldato
Oh, sorry should’ve been clearer - that’s the first job. Profitable and trying to sell their office building.
Ahh .. CFO selling off stuff is a concern when coupled with no profitability.
Soldato
I had a weird experience at work yesterday, and my head is really spinning. I've been here 12.5 years so it's like a second home to me. I have no desire to leave.
I'm a product manager for some low carbon technology and a member the leadership team, though it's a small business with a relatively flat structure.
Maybe once every three months I have a catch up with the sales director, who isn't really the guy I work with most, but is concrete. This time, the MD joined the meeting, who I work with all the time. There's nothing to read into this specifically, though he is a big ideas guy.
He saw the catch up as a sort of review. In short, they sort of questioned what I was doing with myself. I'm studying for an MBA, which is going well, but I think they expected me to come back with more wild ideas (it's part time, I go there every eight weeks, we're having a baby, there's a lot on my mind other than the degree, and I was quite ill this and last year so I've been catching up on work for it). The last thing I intended was to go to uni and start doing weird MBA stuff to people. That would annoy the hell out of me if I were on the receiving end.
I tried to explain what I did every day, but every day is quite different and I work on quite a broad spectrum of stuff. This morning, for example, I spent a couple of hours looking after stuff for my product, an hour doing stuff to do with the grad scheme, which I manage a chunk of, and then another hour working on a holistic design concept that draws all our products together.
So when they asked me about this year, I had really put my eggs in the holistic design basket. They then asked why I wasn't driving it forward. I was a bit stumped - I've made a CPD presentation and delivered it to all our account managers, produced material to support that, we're working on design guides, marketing, but it seemed like they were saying I should be organising meetings with clients about it. That's not really my job...we have account managers who are paid to do that. I'm not really a "not my job" sort of guy, I muck in where I need to, but the account managers literally speak to these people all the time. So I thought I'd given them the tools.
Apparently not - my bosses are saying I need to drive or I'm going to be driven. I love having autonomy, though to be fair to them, I've been struggling with focus in the last few months because I had kind of wrapped up this design concept. I like strategy, I like people, and I like to fix things. I wasn't sure that comparison was fair as they mentioned colleagues who are in similar jobs to me and who drive - but they've been given hot potatoes. One of them manages heat pumps, of course they're flying off the shelves. Another manages energy meters, which go into the product that comprises 70% of the business and in which we are market leaders...that's all primarily in the residential sector. I've always exclusively worked in the commercial sector, which doesn't seem to have the same life in it for this company. Those guys don't need to drive because their products are in such high demand, and I don't believe that they created the demand.
So they've left it really open ended for me to come back and say what I actually want to do. I'd like to lead...but that probably requires driving. I was presented with a couple of vague options - I'm good at writing industry stuff and that could be a job, but then I'd be under the head of marketing, who I see as being in a parallel role to me. I could work under the head of technical (something like that), which would actually be OK. But I don't think I have quite enough technical knowledge.
One thing I see as a problem (and maybe it's not) is that I'm generally quite big picture and I'm a generalised. I specialised in my product, but it's a small part of the business. I didn't specialise in heat pumps or anything relating to plant rooms, so my knowledge there is a bit lacking. I could fill that gaps, but I have a job to do in the mean time.
Through uni, we have a career counsellor. I've got an appointment with them next Wednesday, so I hope they can help me understand.
Anyway, just wanted to vent really! Sorry for the wall of text. Still reeling!!
I'm a product manager for some low carbon technology and a member the leadership team, though it's a small business with a relatively flat structure.
Maybe once every three months I have a catch up with the sales director, who isn't really the guy I work with most, but is concrete. This time, the MD joined the meeting, who I work with all the time. There's nothing to read into this specifically, though he is a big ideas guy.
He saw the catch up as a sort of review. In short, they sort of questioned what I was doing with myself. I'm studying for an MBA, which is going well, but I think they expected me to come back with more wild ideas (it's part time, I go there every eight weeks, we're having a baby, there's a lot on my mind other than the degree, and I was quite ill this and last year so I've been catching up on work for it). The last thing I intended was to go to uni and start doing weird MBA stuff to people. That would annoy the hell out of me if I were on the receiving end.
I tried to explain what I did every day, but every day is quite different and I work on quite a broad spectrum of stuff. This morning, for example, I spent a couple of hours looking after stuff for my product, an hour doing stuff to do with the grad scheme, which I manage a chunk of, and then another hour working on a holistic design concept that draws all our products together.
So when they asked me about this year, I had really put my eggs in the holistic design basket. They then asked why I wasn't driving it forward. I was a bit stumped - I've made a CPD presentation and delivered it to all our account managers, produced material to support that, we're working on design guides, marketing, but it seemed like they were saying I should be organising meetings with clients about it. That's not really my job...we have account managers who are paid to do that. I'm not really a "not my job" sort of guy, I muck in where I need to, but the account managers literally speak to these people all the time. So I thought I'd given them the tools.
Apparently not - my bosses are saying I need to drive or I'm going to be driven. I love having autonomy, though to be fair to them, I've been struggling with focus in the last few months because I had kind of wrapped up this design concept. I like strategy, I like people, and I like to fix things. I wasn't sure that comparison was fair as they mentioned colleagues who are in similar jobs to me and who drive - but they've been given hot potatoes. One of them manages heat pumps, of course they're flying off the shelves. Another manages energy meters, which go into the product that comprises 70% of the business and in which we are market leaders...that's all primarily in the residential sector. I've always exclusively worked in the commercial sector, which doesn't seem to have the same life in it for this company. Those guys don't need to drive because their products are in such high demand, and I don't believe that they created the demand.
So they've left it really open ended for me to come back and say what I actually want to do. I'd like to lead...but that probably requires driving. I was presented with a couple of vague options - I'm good at writing industry stuff and that could be a job, but then I'd be under the head of marketing, who I see as being in a parallel role to me. I could work under the head of technical (something like that), which would actually be OK. But I don't think I have quite enough technical knowledge.
One thing I see as a problem (and maybe it's not) is that I'm generally quite big picture and I'm a generalised. I specialised in my product, but it's a small part of the business. I didn't specialise in heat pumps or anything relating to plant rooms, so my knowledge there is a bit lacking. I could fill that gaps, but I have a job to do in the mean time.
Through uni, we have a career counsellor. I've got an appointment with them next Wednesday, so I hope they can help me understand.
Anyway, just wanted to vent really! Sorry for the wall of text. Still reeling!!
What does your product do in the commercial space? As a product manager what do you think could make it more valuable of a space? Of course the heat pumps and energy meters are more popular, are there ways you could find any cross over to those spaces? I wouldn't be able to comment without knowing the space you're in, but sounds like they're looking for more leadership in the strategy for your product line and where changes can be made to be more profitable?
Soldato
It's MVHR. But the UK regulations are somewhat against us, so it's been very, very challenging.
I have made a sort of cross over into everything.
I think you're right though - more leadership strategy. I guess I felt like I'd done the right stuff already, but obviously not. I was actually taken aback when my boss said "why haven't you come to me to say it needs driving harder." I was like, "is that an option?!".
I think it's a great conversation if you think about it. At least the communication was there and now you know. Some people just don't say **** and then just give you crap for not doing anything.
Lead, if you have a team you can delegate.
This smells like that the sales director under pressure, has indicated that he's not got the right thing/new killer product to sell to customers. Unfortunately that comes back to your plate as product management. Marketing isn't going to make anything other than segment new ways.
It sounds like you need a roadshow - get out and spend 1-2 days a week visiting customers, driving new ideas out of think tanks etc.
There are a lot of roles where there is an expectation for multiple roles to be done by one person.
It sounds like you need to drive your team - you won't have the knowledge but through appropriate driving you can (as a team) deliver new ideas. I get the feeling that they are giving you a push - that includes needing to bring the team together productively.
Look at large/multi-team leadership courses. I had the pleasure of leading four 6-10 people product teams before moving to a 70+ crossfunctional team - when they made 50,000 people redundant (including me), they still let me go on the booked leadership course. Turns out I was one of the more senior/larger product managers and all came across during the tests etc that what I'd learnt doing the role and figured out myself - was the taught way. It was nice because it really validated what I'd done and how I'd grown.
I'm not a programme manager - like you I would do high level and then be there for the 6 project managers when needed to come in as SLT support. However this also included strategic drivers - planned activities, product work and generating new ways forward plus mentoring.
It will feel odd, and difficult, but open your mind a little - look at how to build the team with forward innovation in mind etc (even if there's no money.. ideas appear - better the board says no than sit there silently).
Also in my last role - the org structure has changed (I know that based on a convo today) and my getting the boot was purely restructuring. Turns out that running 42 services and being high level wasn't good enough - they actually wanted to drop the seniority and move to flat technical doers lead by technical staff. Not that will work for the long term but it's what the board signed off on.. so unless I could write code, know all of AWS etc at a coding level.. then you're days were numbered.. just like both myself and my boss.
The issue is coding doesn't really do it for me ... 27 years of coding in industry. So it was a good thing I moved on. I have done some more technical AWS/Azure courses but I'm never going to be coding up.. It teaches me some interesting things technically and I learnt a little but I'm more interested in also looking at new ideas for new products rather than owning the cloud for a 29bn revenue group company.
I know I get bored. I know I like new ideas. I like to solve problems - both creating new things and operating problems. I'm not an operational person, I'm not 100% a sales person either and I accept both of those.
My advise is to try something new - if that fails and you end up being given the push.. at least you have new skills.
Nice surprise today,
Had a knock at the door from a UPS driver, got a large box delivered - turned out to be a nice welcome pack from the new role, branded travel bag, loads of stickers and bits and bobs and a hand written welcome note - a nice touch.
Starting to feel a bit more real now, heading out for dinner with some people at the new office soon which will be nice, then I'm going to New York for 6 weeks, the new office is on the top 6x floors of one of the main WTC buildings, so I'm quite excited to go up there!
Had a knock at the door from a UPS driver, got a large box delivered - turned out to be a nice welcome pack from the new role, branded travel bag, loads of stickers and bits and bobs and a hand written welcome note - a nice touch.
Starting to feel a bit more real now, heading out for dinner with some people at the new office soon which will be nice, then I'm going to New York for 6 weeks, the new office is on the top 6x floors of one of the main WTC buildings, so I'm quite excited to go up there!