Time for fuel cell / hydrogen car?

Jonnycoupe · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:42

Thats today, McPhee is giving some really good data on what would happen! you are ignoring.

Grid demand might be low for that region of the UK hence wind turbines not turning, or wind too high for the speed etc.

You literally have the worse argument for defining UK power demand.
Atleast start here : https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

McPhee · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:45

ver01@ said:
Wind turbines working intermittently because there is no need for power? Need more?
https://www.iea.org/commentaries/mo...city-an-opportunity-for-early-decarbonisation

"One of these insights is that renewables integration can be divided into a set of six phases dependent partly on the share of variable renewables in the system, but also on other system-dependent factors such as the share of storage hydro and interconnections.

Two countries have already reached Phase 4. Denmark, which has been a leader, has the significant advantage of strong interconnections to handle both surpluses and shortfalls. Ireland has much weaker interconnections and additional measures have been needed to ensure short-term system stability.

No country is yet in Phase 5 (where production can exceed demand) or in Phase 6, where seasonal storage solutions would be needed to match supply and demand."

There is some excess on the grid in the UK. But it isn't much yet and it's very intermittent. Not really enough to be relying on it. And there are a lot of businesses eyeing up the potential excess in the future. It's not like hydrogen production would have it all to itself. Instead, it's going to be competing with batteries, pumped storage, vehicle to grid, CAES, flywheels, etc.

Jonnycoupe · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:50

ver01@ said:
Wind turbines working intermittently because there is no need for power? Need more?
https://www.iea.org/commentaries/mo...city-an-opportunity-for-early-decarbonisation

My apologies, i read it, if you hadn't done that and read only the headline I guess that's where you are falling over.

ver01@ · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:51

McPhee said:
"One of these insights is that renewables integration can be divided into a set of six phases dependent partly on the share of variable renewables in the system, but also on other system-dependent factors such as the share of storage hydro and interconnections.

Two countries have already reached Phase 4. Denmark, which has been a leader, has the significant advantage of strong interconnections to handle both surpluses and shortfalls. Ireland has much weaker interconnections and additional measures have been needed to ensure short-term system stability.

No country is yet in Phase 5 (where production can exceed demand) or in Phase 6, where seasonal storage solutions would be needed to match supply and demand."

There is some excess on the grid in the UK. But it isn't much yet and it's very intermittent. Not really enough to be relying on it.

That's the first step. No wasted energy. You don't jump to phase 6.

ver01@ · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:52

Jonnycoupe said:
Grid demand might be low for that region of the UK hence wind turbines not turning, or wind too high for the speed etc.

If demand is low you store the energy. Not that difficult to understand.

McPhee · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:52

ver01@ said:
That's the first step. No wasted energy. You don't jump to phase 6.

So you start by building facilities to deal with an excess that doesn't exist yet?

ver01@ · 16 Sep 2020 at 13:53

McPhee said:
So you start by building facilities to deal with an excess that doesn't exist yet?

Let's see.

Do you have wind turbines that are connected to the grid?

jpaul · 16 Sep 2020 at 15:28

McPhee said:
So 65kWh of power is used to make 39kWh stored in the form of hydrogen. But you still have to realise that energy. And that's where you get more losses.

Hyundai Nexo has a 6.7kg tank, giving it a range of 380 miles. That's 56.7 miles per kg. You originally put 65kWh of electricity in to make 1kg of hydrogen, meaning you're effectively getting 0.87 miles per kWh.

you are right, there is the fuel cell efficiency too , to add in, at ~80%, so increasing hydrogen cost 25%.

The 0.87miles/KWh you calcuated, if that was considering efficiency of full generation process, versus 2.9 for a model3,
then at the reference, octopus 1.2p/unit, that means nexo would be 4p/mile, much cheaper than ICE.

The reference electricity price seems to be the key,
like, say, if you exclusively used public chargers for a bev

McPhee · 16 Sep 2020 at 16:30

jpaul said:
The 0.87miles/KWh you calcuated, if that was considering efficiency of full generation process, versus 2.9 for a model3,
then at the reference, octopus 1.2p/unit, that means nexo would be 4p/mile, much cheaper than ICE.

There are a lot more costs with producing, distributing and selling hydrogen than just the electricity cost though. The IEA assessment mentioned earlier pegs production cost at around 90c to $3 per kg if produced using natural gas and $3.20 to $7.50 per kg if produced from electrolysis. The former retails for more like $16 to $18 per kg.

jpaul · 16 Sep 2020 at 20:20

The irena doc is 6-7$/kg hydrogen at the pump., those costs included.

if someone said you can have a hydrogen car that is 4p a mile, even if the overnight bev unit, in the uk at 1p a mile, people would jump at that,

but obviously the chancellor will dip into both at some point, for his pound of flesh
battery+hydrogen are effectively the duo that will replace petrol+diesel , with similar usage scenarios.

Do the cheap home overnight electric units also exist in europe/usa, or do folks pay, much more on parity with the public chargers,
because they have storage options, to use night spare capacity.

ver01@ · 7 Oct 2020 at 07:44

Looks like its happening

Kenai · 7 Oct 2020 at 08:15

ver01@ said:
Looks like its happening

Does it? Is this based on some sort of article you've seen this morning or just a gut feeling?

Jonnycoupe · 7 Oct 2020 at 08:23

Why did I care so much 2 weeks ago

jpaul · 7 Oct 2020 at 08:32

Boris had announced some additional funding last week, and, further discussion last night following his 'breezy' speech, for hgv/coache use,
and - that plane flight, last week.

1/4 of 'carbon' fuel is used for those, so if 1 in 4 garages became hydrogen that would provide car opportunity.

ver01@ · 7 Oct 2020 at 21:37

And hydrogen powered trains

Nasher · 7 Oct 2020 at 21:49

And Boris scooters.

Jonnycoupe · 7 Oct 2020 at 22:04

Is that before or after the world beating track and trace and test methods

jpaul · 7 Oct 2020 at 22:18

Yes, Boris, needs to replace ACME in the lingua franca.

Both the plane and the train are cool, but neither of the videos I saw, showed the fuel cells, to see how big they might be.

jpaul · 8 Oct 2020 at 14:02

New hydrogen lorries now delivered in switzerland
so, they haven't gone for anything aerodynamic, like tesla proposals, but maybe more economic to re-use current platform,
I like the grill carryover from their H car.

Hyundai XCIENT is the World's First Fuel Cell Heavy Duty Truck

or, burnt orange paint scheme https://youtu.be/-4Dr1QdM2mI?t=40

paradigm · 8 Oct 2020 at 14:14

jpaul said:
New hydrogen lorries now delivered in switzerland
so, they haven't gone for anything aerodynamic, like tesla proposals, but maybe more economic to re-use current platform,
I like the grill carryover from their H car.

Hyundai XCIENT is the World's First Fuel Cell Heavy Duty Truck

or, burnt orange paint scheme https://youtu.be/-4Dr1QdM2mI?t=40

I might be going blind, but I can't see a 5th wheel coupling on the truck, nor anywhere one would fit because of the location of the hydrogen tanks?

The orange one has an RPM gauge, so is an internal combustion engine.