Today's mass shooting in the US

Werewolf said:
The argument that having a gun makes you able to protect yourself has always been a bit of a nonsense in many of the situations where it's claimed it will "save yor", for example having a gun on you doesn't help if someone pulls theirs first or you've got your hands full, or you have to spend several second fumbling to get your gun from being "safe" to usable, having a huge honking gun on your back doesn't make you safer against someone who doesn't care if they die, it just means you're probably going to be the first person they shoot after they've killed the trained security guard/police officer next to you (and if they don't, when the police/swat teams arrive you're going to treated as a priority suspect and likely shot by them*)
Even Police and trained military personal have been killed despite being "on duty" armed and supposedly ready, because the shooter is someone they didn't spot, didn't assess as a threat, or was simply faster for whater reason (better training, better familiarity with the gun, no hesitation in pulling the trigger, or had a smaller gun that was simply easier to aim quickly).
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This is all very true, and difficult situations often don't play out the way you expect, or as they do 'in the movies' so to speak.

I've often laid in bed at night wondering what would have happened, after I experienced an absolute ******* nightmare in the US back in 2017, which I've never written about in here, but I've always wondered, 'if I'd have had a gun with me, would I really have been any safer?'

I do a lot of landscape photography (some of my stuff is in the photography forums), a lot of which is in deserts and over the years I've become somewhat of a specialist in Death Valley and the general area, specifically with ghost towns and old gold mining camps, many of which require lots of 4x4ing to reach, and aren't listed anywhere.

To cut a long story short, I'd been Jeeping in up in the hills for 2 days, had to swap a flat tyre and was running very late, it was about midnight by the time I got down and back onto tarmac and started to drive back to LA. On the way back I was on Panamint Valley road (around 1am) and suddenly a car appeared behind me, really close weaving around behind me flashing it's lights, driving really close, nobody around anywhere, no mobile signal.

After around 5 mins he sped past me which nearly put us both in a ditch, then got right in front of me and slammed the brakes on - partially blocking the road (which was a narrow mountain pass) forcing me to stop, at this point - I had no idea what he wanted. He quickly jumped out and ran up to my driver side window.

A young hispanic guy, in a small hatch back with Arizona plates - he was asking if I could give him a lift to the gas station as he was about to run out of gas, the nearest gas station was about another 30 miles up the road in a place called Trona, I told him 'Sorry mate, I'm off to LA' meanwhile he's looking through the back windows of the Jeep and he had his hand in his pocket like something was in there. (about 20ks worth of Phase One medium format photography equipment)

He then told me to get out of the car, so I just gunned it - didn't even think, just hit the gas and left him stood there, eventually he catches up with me (4x4 Wrangler isn't the best choice for a car chase) where he tried to force me off the road for about 10-15 miles or so, basically all the way back to Trona, where he then gave up about 5 miles before I got there, and stopped - god knows where he went. When I got close to the town I found the Sherriff, pulled in and spoke to them, made a report and stuff, never heard from them again.

(Cool story bro)

I've often wondered, 'would a gun have helped me at all' I honestly don't really think it would have, in hindsight I could have had a 9mm in the glovebox, got the drop on him as he approached. But in reality, I'm just a guy who works in I.T, I do shoot guns (a lot) and I'm a member of a gun club (Scottsdale Arizona) but I'm not a cop, I just don't have the training to deal with a situation like that.

In hindsight it's easy to think 'I would have done X or Y' but when a stressful situation like that occurs, fear takes it's toll - you freeze up, your thought process isn't the same as when you're bragging with your mates in the pub, fear is very very hard to control. I'm generally not a scardy cat at all, play Rugby, I'm pretty physical and strong (I have a criminal record for affray so I'm no stranger to having a tear up) but when something like that happens when you're on your own and not expecting it, it's a different kettle of fish altogether, I'm lucky I didn't freeze up and just sit there.

For a gun to have been useful in that situation, I would have to practise my draw, constantly, take god knows how many lessons and defense classes, and keep it up - year after year, in order to be effective, in terms of getting an effective shot, and/or dealing with the situation in a way which wouldn't result in me being killed, or ending up in jail for getting the whole thing wrong.

I've thought about that night, thousands of times, every other night I think about it - who the guy was, where is he now, what did he want, I've even driven past that same spot twenty times and I wonder each time how many different ways it could have played out, but in the end I'm alive.
 
Screeeech said:
I've often wondered, 'would a gun have helped me at all' I honestly don't really think it would have, in hindsight I could have had a 9mm in the glovebox, got the drop on him as he approached. But in reality, I'm just a guy who works in I.T, I do shoot guns (a lot) and I'm a member of a gun club (Scottsdale Arizona) but I'm not a cop, I just don't have the training to deal with a situation like that.

In hindsight it's easy to think 'I would have done X or Y' but when a stressful situation like that occurs, fear takes it's toll - you freeze up, your thought process isn't the same as when you're bragging with your mates in the pub, fear is very very hard to control. I'm generally not a scardy cat at all, play Rugby, I'm pretty physical and strong (I have a criminal record for affray so I'm no stranger to having a tear up) but when something like that happens when you're on your own and not expecting it, it's a different kettle of fish altogether, I'm lucky I didn't freeze up and just sit there.

For a gun to have been useful in that situation, I would have to practise my draw, constantly, take god knows how many lessons and defense classes, and keep it up - year after year, in order to be effective, in terms of getting an effective shot, and/or dealing with the situation in a way which wouldn't result in me being killed, or ending up in jail for getting the whole thing wrong.

I've thought about that night, thousands of times, every other night I think about it - who the guy was, where is he now, what did he want, I've even driven past that same spot twenty times and I wonder each time how many different ways it could have played out, but in the end I'm alive.
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This rarely ends well as the other person, if armed, has the drop on you so to speak and already has an approach in mind i.e. whether they are going to hold you up at gunpoint or just kill you and steal your shoes. The uncertainty as to whether they situation warrants using a firearm defensively and doubt as to whether you've read the situation right, etc. again almost always has the victim on the back foot.

Though to be fair 9 times out of 10 if you are obviously armed someone just out to steal isn't committed to the situation escalating that far and will change their mind.
 
 
Screeeech said:
For a gun to have been useful in that situation, I would have to practise my draw, constantly, take god knows how many lessons and defense classes, and keep it up - year after year, in order to be effective, in terms of getting an effective shot, and/or dealing with the situation in a way which wouldn't result in me being killed, or ending up in jail for getting the whole thing wrong.
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A lot of people do just this in America, because the country is so vast as you very well know, there aren't always Police around when you need them. Imagine if you were a 5"4 9 stone girl and didn't have your physicality as well, guns are a force equaliser and self defence is important.

200sols said:
How many killed in USA by vehicle attacks in 2019? How many killed by guns? Please do go on.
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I'm making the point that cars can be used to randomly kill people just as guns can, both can be used as lethal weapons should someone so desire, so being scared of someone carrying a gun randomly deciding to murder someone doesn't make sense when a car can do the same thing.
 
Trusty said:
The problem is mental health and young men being angry at society.
.
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Quite . That is something that will take generations to potentially solve. Seems odd to have such lenient gun laws in place when your country has a really bad issue with that sort of thing dont you think?

Seems odd for their leader to almost immediately roll back legislation that was designed to prevent mentally ill people getting hold of guns so readily.

If only in the interim, they could do something , you know, with gun legislation, that might help.
 
Jono8 said:
Quite . That is something that will take generations to potentially solve. Seems odd to have such lenient gun laws in place when your country has a really bad issue with that sort of thing dont you think?

Seems odd for their leader to almost immediately roll back legislation that was designed to prevent mentally ill people getting hold of guns so readily.

If only in the interim, they could do something , you know, with gun legislation, that might help.
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This was explained in the Trump thread recently, he didn't roll back legislation for mentally ill people.

https://twitter.com/JayCaruso/status/1158385483858239489
 
On the subject of mass shooters mental illness, it's interesting to see the finger of blame being pointed towards mental health again, despite experts who aren't affiliated with gun lobbies saying; there's no clear link between mental illness and mass shootings, quite the contrary - you're more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator, if you're mentally ill.

I've recently read several books on mass shootings, one delved into the backgrounds of some of the prolific school shooters, (Nikolas Cruz and Adam Lanza, among others) what's interesting, is that in many cases there's one thing that stands out across each case; most of them suffered from anxiety, were suicidal, ostracized, lonely often (but not always) with a history of abuse.

What I find interesting, is that people across the world suffer from mental illness, anxiety, loneliness etc, even other countries with guns. Yet the problem of mass shootings, or school shootings tend to be an almost strictly American problem, so what's different about America? why do people fly off the handle so quickly and easily compared to mentally ill people in other places.

I was interested in Nikolas Cruz (Parkland shooting) because he was caught alive, I've watched his police interview a few times (because I'm weird :p ) and I've tried to understand if there's some sort of deeper meaning to his actions, but all I see is an upset kid who's had a few relatively minor issues, perhaps he lacks the mental fortitude to deal with difficult situations - but again, why do American kids need to go so far and shoot up a school.

This was him before the shooting;


And them him being interviewed by a detective immediately after;


Essentially I see a broken child, who for some reason felt driven to do this, and I wonder what it is that's occurring in society that drove him to it.

Is it the lack of community? People living isolated lives with no sense of community, it reminds me of the saying 'it takes a village to raise a child' maybe that's where American society has gone wrong, consumer driven, natural interaction replaced with social media, and a culture based on money-is-everything..

Hell knows.
 
Jono8 said:
No that is the excuse for why it was rolled back. That tweet is hugely disingenuous.

Sure, maybe it wasn't perfect and may have caught up people it shouldn't have who werent a risk, but has he replaced it with anything better?
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No, it's not.

ACLU were even in favour of that rollback.

It's been in the recent news that new legislation is being looked at. This stuff doesn't happen overnight...
 
Trusty said:
No, it's not.

ACLU were even in favour of that rollback.

It's been in the recent news that new legislation is being looked at. This stuff doesn't happen overnight...
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2 years and waiting....then it has Mitch to get through. You are optimistic, if nothing else...
 
Screeeech said:
On the subject of mass shooters mental illness, it's interesting to see the finger of blame being pointed towards mental health again, despite experts who aren't affiliated with gun lobbies saying; there's no clear link between mental illness and mass shootings, quite the contrary - you're more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator, if you're mentally ill.

I've recently read several books on mass shootings, one delved into the backgrounds of some of the prolific school shooters, (Nikolas Cruz and Adam Lanza, among others) what's interesting, is that in many cases there's one thing that stands out across each case; most of them suffered from anxiety, were suicidal, ostracized, lonely often (but not always) with a history of abuse.

What I find interesting, is that people across the world suffer from mental illness, anxiety, loneliness etc, even other countries with guns. Yet the problem of mass shootings, or school shootings tend to be an almost strictly American problem, so what's different about America? why do people fly off the handle so quickly and easily compared to mentally ill people in other places.

I was interested in Nikolas Cruz (Parkland shooting) because he was caught alive, I've watched his police interview a few times (because I'm weird :p ) and I've tried to understand if there's some sort of deeper meaning to his actions, but all I see is an upset kid who's had a few relatively minor issues, perhaps he lacks the mental fortitude to deal with difficult situations - but again, why do American kids need to go so far and shoot up a school.

This was him before the shooting;


And them him being interviewed by a detective immediately after;


Essentially I see a broken child, who for some reason felt driven to do this, and I wonder what it is that's occurring in society that drove him to it.

Is it the lack of community? People living isolated lives with no sense of community, it reminds me of the saying 'it takes a village to raise a child' maybe that's where American society has gone wrong, consumer driven, natural interaction replaced with social media, and a culture based on money-is-everything..

Hell knows.
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I defy anybody who went through normal teenage development to say there weren't times they got, in hindsight, scarily angry about not a lot.

Back in the day though you got angry at your parents etc, people who you, generally, couldn't really hate to the same degree you can a stranger who has been dehumanised by the highest power in the land.

I got my teenage frustrations out by going into the woodshed and hacking the hell out of a log with an axe.

In the US today, through the internet, teenagers are being politicised too early by a rhetoric of hatred and dehumanisation AND have access to guns.
 
Trusty said:
The problem is mental health and young men being angry at society.

Switzerland has some of highest gun ownership in the world and no mass shootings.
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Cool, so if the country has a problem then these mentally unwell and angry people should not be able to access weapons that armies see fit to use in the field against each other (unlike steak knives).

Pretty sure that the Swiss have weapons as part of some sort of structured system to do with armed service.
 
wesimmo said:
I defy anybody who went through normal teenage development to say there weren't times they got, in hindsight, scarily angry about not a lot.

Back in the day though you got angry at your parents etc, people who you, generally, couldn't really hate to the same degree you can a stranger who has been dehumanised by the highest power in the land.

I got my teenage frustrations out by going into the woodshed and hacking the hell out of a log with an axe.

In the US today, through the internet, teenagers are being politicised too early by a rhetoric of hatred and dehumanisation AND have access to guns.
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I absolutely agree, it seems like the political and societal issues are the elephant in the room, where the default response to one of these incidents is for society to send 'thoughts and prayers' whilst incompetent politicians owned by various different lobbies, fall over themselves in an attempt to blame a single issue, or grab some non-existent low hanging fruit so they can attempt to further their own interests.

I think Obama made attempts to try and swing people's thinking in that direction, in the sense that this was a societal problem, as much as it's a gun control or mental health problem. Unfortunately he never made any significant inroads, probably because in the end he didn't wield that much real power.

When I look at Nikolas Cruz, and I ask myself what I see - at first glance I don't see a twisted psychopath, hellbent on razing society, I see an angry child who for one reason or another was failed in some way, who has eventually been left to explode and was in a position to 'go off' with maximum effect, with no thanks to current gun legislation.

To go back to that native American saying; 'it takes a village to raise a child' I see Cruz as the product of a broken village, and therein lies the problem - to fix it, it involves everybody because in a sense, every single person is to blame in one way or another. In a way, they indirectly help propagate this broken society that churns out mentally wrecked children who are like tinderboxes ready to blow at a moment's notice.

I imagine we should be geared to expect more of the same, and expect that it'll go one and on.
 
Roar87 said:
If I'm walking around in Texas with a pistol holstered are you going to assume I'm going to shoot someone?
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Yes. Because why else are you carrying the gun? Answer me that.

Roar87 said:
How do I tell a bus driver travelling in my direction while I'm walking on the pavement isn't suddenly going to veer into me and wipe me out from the bus driver just going about his job who is going to carry on?
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You don't. But I'm betting there's a much higher proportion of law-abiding bus drivers that manage to get on with their day without killing someone than people who decide to go out carrying weapons. The difference is that a bus is designed to be used as a method of transportation, a gun is designed to kill people. I can use my keyboard to slap some sense into you, but that's not what it's designed for and hence if I walk onto a train carrying a keyboard nobody is going to bat an eyelid.

Guns are designed to kill people, that's literally their only purpose. Excuse joe public for assuming that's what you're carrying it for.

dowie said:
^^^ this is literally part of the reason why California restricts open carry, a bunch of well armed African Americans rocked up to the State Capitol building exercising their own gun rights and even the NRA started advocating gun control!
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I love that picture :D
 
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