It's for ideological purposes, which is why you have a massive difference between their figures and somewhere like the bbc/sky... 11 for MJ and over 400 for UK media reporting
Today's mass shooting in the US
- Thread starter Rroff
- Start date
Mostly mountains, cold and depressing. It's perfect.
Don
The US already has some pretty restrictive regulations for some types of firearm so I don't understand why adding more types to the same checking system is such a massive pain.
Take short-barrel rifles (rifles with a barrel of <41cm and a stock) for example. To register an SBR you need to do the following:
So, why is this OK but to do the same for a rifle over 41cm barrel length is not OK?
Take short-barrel rifles (rifles with a barrel of <41cm and a stock) for example. To register an SBR you need to do the following:
- Be 21+ years of age to purchase a SBR from a dealer.
- Be a resident of the United States.
- Be legally eligible to purchase a firearm.
- Pass a BATFE background check.
- Pay a one-time $200 tax to register or transfer the item.
- Reside in a state that currently allows ownership of SBR’s
So, why is this OK but to do the same for a rifle over 41cm barrel length is not OK?
Definitely not the case. I've been in a club for 40 years with up to 500 members. Lots of guns, lots of competitions and not being used for "utility", it's just like a noisy form of golf
In all that time not one single issue. There are a few overweight men but none of them have any of these delusions the uninitiated seem to imagine. In fact a great bunch of people, ex military, police, NHS, managers, shop floor workers, business owners. Nothing like some would have you believe. The thing that worries me is this "future crime" thinking, it's going down the road to totalitarianism. You can't do or own something in case you commit a crime at a future date. The sky is the limit with that kind of thinking. Now imagine you apply that to a different group of people because "they might be a threat" at some undetermined point in the future. That can take us to a very dark place.
Soldato
Yes, there’s no reason why that system couldn’t be used to register every firearm.
Caporegime
Definitely not the case. I've been in a club for 40 years with up to 500 members. Lots of guns, lots of competitions and not being used for "utility", it's just like a noisy form of golf
That is utility. The vast majority of Americans are not shooting for fun or as a hobby, they are essentially collecting guns because they have some warped sense of defending themselves if someone broke into their house. America has these nutjobs who spend their weekends "prepping" for doomsday and yes, they are the sort you would imagine. The sort that would be the first in the ground because they have been playing soldier with their mates and have no actual experience.
I don't think the UK gun culture is anything like the US which is why we don't have almost any of the same issues as they do.
It is different definitely. To be fair their preppers types are the rarity, we hear about it as it's click worthy. There are lots of recreational shooters there and plenty who live a distance away from others or in a dodgy part of town. There are far too many guns now in the hands of the criminals so you'll never get them off the people who might want to do you harm. I don't blame the law abiding for being concerned, the cops will only be there to clean up, not prevent anything. It's a huge place. The big issue imo is ownership by the mentally unstable and those with no education on safety. That would go a long way to helping. The big issue with registration is a lack of trust of the legislators, as has happened pretty well everywhere the restrictions have got tighter and tighter for the law abiding, given the US, as you say, is mostly buying for self defence they are hardly likely to vote for disarming themselves whilst leaving the criminal element free to carry on.
Caporegime
This is the big issue in the US. Once that genie is out of the bag and you have a whole culture that is massively pro gun its very hard to change. When school shootings don't lead to drastic change, what else will?
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I'm not sure it will in the shorter term. I think the culture will change again. If you listen to some of the old guys guns were very accessible and no-one considered going to a school back in the day. There are lots of factors imo more mental health issues, desensitisation to violence, less respect for authority, substance abuse, break down of families and communities, lack of personal responsibility, lots of medication, lack of mental health care, even religion - thinking there might be repercussions in the afterlife must have been a factor for some.
As bad as it is there are other issues causing deaths that never get much attention, alcohol is involved in 30% of violent crimes and 50% of murders. It's not an either/or thing but it's rarely about concentrating on what will do most good but which is politically more advantageous. Alcohol is and its harms as a drug is seen a acceptable, not many votes to be gained restricting that. I'd like to see more honesty in politics but I won't be holding my breath!
Commissario
Technically there is.
IIRC Congress under Reagan passed a law that meant that there can be no easy national database of firearms, they are stuck using systems that literally have not changed in 35 years, as of a few years back it was still green text displays as not only could they not get a budget to replace them, they were not under the law allowed to improve them.
So an "urgent" search (say terrorism or mass shooting) for a gun involves at best the ATF checking to see on an ancient PC system* if the gun was registered as going to a dealer, and if it was then they start hauling out file boxes for that year to find the hand written submissions from the dealer to see if they can find who it was sold to.
IIRC at best it typically takes several days and multiple people to do what can be done in any sane system in about 5 seconds, for non urgent requests for information it can take weeks and require going through several warehouses.
*Deliberately so.
Commissario
Ok it looks like I was incorrect in my previous post.
Apparently they've moved from Microfiche of the records they have, to images that have to be manually searched one at a time because the microfiche readers were becoming too expensive and hard to buy, but they're still banned from creating any sort of modern searchable system
Effectively they're about at the same level of searching for information as my local library was back in the 80's when if you wanted to look something up you had the card index, or one of a couple of microfiche readers. They're just now using a fancy digital photoframe to check the records.
And this is only for federally licenced dealers who have gone out of business.
Apparently they've moved from Microfiche of the records they have, to images that have to be manually searched one at a time because the microfiche readers were becoming too expensive and hard to buy, but they're still banned from creating any sort of modern searchable system
Effectively they're about at the same level of searching for information as my local library was back in the 80's when if you wanted to look something up you had the card index, or one of a couple of microfiche readers. They're just now using a fancy digital photoframe to check the records.
And this is only for federally licenced dealers who have gone out of business.
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Don
It's completely bonkers isn't it?
Commissario
Don
I mean, I get that firearms ownership is deeply ingrained in American society as is the hunting tradition and the romanticism of being a frontiersman, I really do. But why not make sure that that ownership of said firearms is regulated, and ensure that only people of sound mind are allowed to own them?
I'm not saying they should take all the guns away, far from it. Let people have the guns. Let them have as many as they like, but make sure that those who have them are background checked, sane, non-criminal individuals and I bet the number of shootings would drop substantially.
In many states you need a license to own a dog, but not a rifle.
To drive a car you need to pass a proficiency test and have a license, but not to own a rifle.
In Delaware for example, you cannot legally own or carry a flicknife, but as long as you are over 18 there is no restriction on owning a rifle.
I just find the whole thing absolutely unfathomable, and I'm someone who absolutely loves firearms and shooting.
I'm not saying they should take all the guns away, far from it. Let people have the guns. Let them have as many as they like, but make sure that those who have them are background checked, sane, non-criminal individuals and I bet the number of shootings would drop substantially.
In many states you need a license to own a dog, but not a rifle.
To drive a car you need to pass a proficiency test and have a license, but not to own a rifle.
In Delaware for example, you cannot legally own or carry a flicknife, but as long as you are over 18 there is no restriction on owning a rifle.
I just find the whole thing absolutely unfathomable, and I'm someone who absolutely loves firearms and shooting.
I don't know specifics off the top of my head - but several of the farmers or estate owners around here have stuff like .240 or .270 or whatever it is rifles which aside from being straight pull are very similar to an AR15. Even the AR15s owned by many in the US aren't really "assault" weapons in any significant way different to most of the "hunting" rifles, etc. though the typical AR15 setup would be inferior for many hunting uses.
Permabanned
If there's a ban on foxhunting (admittedly crude and inefficient, but they did get rid of a lot of foxes over a period of time and I am not a fan), what are they supposed to do, club vermin to death? I have managed to shoot a few foxes here with a 12 gauge, but a good man with a rifle is FAR more effective.
Soldato
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Ain't that the truth. We had 2 serious incidents in the UK in my lifetime and the response clear. Handguns are gone and other forms of firearm ownership are heavily regulated. Different reaction because of a different starting point. Thank heavens I live in the UK.
Soldato
When a Fox News poll shows the vast majority support sensible gun laws you know its just gun manufactures money and lobbying preventing it happening.
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Suspended
Texas continues to reap the rewards of weak firearm legislation.
I dislike the focus on stuff like "assault" weapons and magazine capacity - mechanically most of the AR15 and similar in civilian ownership are no different really to a hunting rifle, magazine capacity only really makes a tiny difference - a far bigger difference would be attained by restricting semi-automatic - which allows for more rapid aimed fire as well as more easily modified by things like bump-stocks for rapid fire.
I'm not a fan of prohibition type approaches and/or reducing things down to purely a needs basis - everyone if fine with it until it is something which affects them
but for many people having firearms restricted to straight-pull and/or bolt action does not prevent them using and enjoying their firearms while going a very long way to reducing their effectiveness in mass-shooting scenarios.