Today's mass shooting in the US

Rroff · 22 Feb 2018 at 21:42

Werewolf said:
And even if you build the schools as forts/prisons you still have the issue of the gunman attacking the entrance where the children are dropped off

Which also makes low tech attacks more viable.

Raymond Lin · 22 Feb 2018 at 21:46

They'll just move to:-

Malls
Soccer Practice
Theme parks

or just plainly on the streets, what are you going to do then? free gun for everyone to defend themselves?

Trusty · 23 Feb 2018 at 02:42

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

wow, that must be so wounding for the parents, the smallest chance an armed officer was anywhere near that school, then, for him not to do anything, bad like

Rroff · 23 Feb 2018 at 03:03

Trusty said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

wow, that must be so wounding for the parents, the smallest chance an armed officer was anywhere near that school, then, for him not to do anything, bad like

Problem is even assuming he didn't freeze up, etc. he has no idea how many gunmen, what he is walking into, when backup might arrive, etc. its part of why the whole idea of arming teachers will accomplish very little.

Trusty · 23 Feb 2018 at 03:09

Rroff said:
Problem is even assuming he didn't freeze up, etc. he has no idea how many gunmen, what he is walking into, when backup might arrive, etc. its part of why the whole idea of arming teachers will accomplish very little.

Of course, that's why cops need better training in the USA, point still stands, he took an oath to server and uphold, he didn't do that, and, that must be a wrecker for the families.

MissChief · 23 Feb 2018 at 03:28

People are forgetting that the massacre at Fort Hood Army base in 2009. An ARMY BASE. Where many soldiers are routinely armed or carry weapons. Where weapons are NOT in short supply. But in this case Army personnel didn't routinely carry firearms in accordance with Army policy and the assailant, a US Army Major, was shot by a civilian police officer. It doesn't matter where or when a mass shooting is going to happen and I doubt any thought of a teacher being armed will stop them. They'll just wear body armour or bring more guns. And, surely, a teachers first priority is the safety of their students, not hunting down a heavily armed shooter in a game of hide and seek? The mantra is ALWAYS Lock/barricade the door, stay hidden, stay quiet, alert the authorities. As it should be, teachers armed or not. To say an armed Teacher or teachers, and I'm quite sure many will not carry a firearm, will stop a shooting like this is ridiculous nonsense.

There was an Armed Guard at the Florida shooting. He stayed outside the school and did not make ANY attempt to approach, identify or engage the shooter. It wouldn't make any difference if there were ten armed guards, their priority is saving the children and staff, not hunting down an active shooter. Leave it to the professionals and get clear of the site.

dowie · 23 Feb 2018 at 05:36

Trusty said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

wow, that must be so wounding for the parents, the smallest chance an armed officer was anywhere near that school, then, for him not to do anything, bad like

He worked full time at the school! That's how he was at the building within 90 seconds, it wasn't a small chance.

MissChief said:
There was an Armed Guard at the Florida shooting. He stayed outside the school and did not make ANY attempt to approach, identify or engage the shooter. It wouldn't make any difference if there were ten armed guards, their priority is saving the children and staff, not hunting down an active shooter. Leave it to the professionals and get clear of the site.

A police officer is a 'professional' so to speak, especially with regards to tackling a criminal.

I suspect if there were 10 then it would make a difference, much higher chance that one or more of them would have intervened. (Not that it would be practical to employ 10 full time at a school)

dowie · 23 Feb 2018 at 05:40

Rroff said:
Problem is even assuming he didn't freeze up, etc. he has no idea how many gunmen, what he is walking into, when backup might arrive, etc. its part of why the whole idea of arming teachers will accomplish very little.

To be fair that shouldn't really matter in this situation given the obvious seriousness and urgency of it. Sure if it were some hostage situation etc.. then no doubt he'd want to wait for a specialist unit to arrive, but an active shooter killing kids, there isn't any time. He shouldn't be working as a police officer after this.

Felon · 23 Feb 2018 at 06:04

For me it really highlights the fact we're all human.

You hear stories like this from war, where people are ordered to attack, or end up taking the brunt of an enemy offensive - the first time they just freeze up, literally mess their pants and go into shock the first time they have to face total carnage.

I don't think any amount of training could prepare someone to deal with the sorts of things that would happen in a mass school shooting, it's easy to sit in an armchair all safe and comfortable - thinking rationally with a level head what someone should or should not do, in reality we'd probably all **** ourselves, no matter what training we had.

dowie · 23 Feb 2018 at 06:21

Most people don't 'freeze up' in firefights, there isn't anything to say he necessarily did either, all we know is that he didn't intervene.

Rroff · 23 Feb 2018 at 06:34

dowie said:
Most people don't 'freeze up' in firefights, there isn't anything to say he necessarily did either, all we know is that he didn't intervene.

True we have little idea what his thought process or circumstances were - few people react like their training the first time **** gets real though some degree of freezing up or indecision is normal. No one really knows how they will react until it happens.

dowie · 23 Feb 2018 at 06:44

I'd say plenty of people do react as per their training, that's the whole point of it... things become a drill.

Hedge · 23 Feb 2018 at 07:06

The arming of teachers is obviously a bad idea.

Pupils sit down for class, get books out of their bags. One gets a gun out along with his homework, executes his armed teacher and Mayhem ensues.

Alternstively a pupil shoots a class mate. Instantly the class descends into chaos. The armed teacher fumbles around to get their concealed weapon. In the panic takes shots at the crowded room to hit who they hope is the shooter.

I have literally no idea how anyone intelligent would push to arm teachers.

robfosters · 23 Feb 2018 at 07:10

dowie said:
I'd say plenty of people do react as per their training, that's the whole point of it... things become a drill.

This.

Sounds like a case of cowardice to me. I’d be fuming at him if I was one of the parents.

Craterloads · 23 Feb 2018 at 07:13

My that’s a predicament for trump and the NRA that there was a armed police officer at the school with all their arm schools talk.

Not sure where others stand but I don’t blame the police officer for not intervening (maybe need to think about it some more) but he isn’t 007, he’s working full time at a school for goodness sake. He serves as a deterrent and to deal with minor incidents, not to take on guys with assault rifles and a death wish with his pistol. They don’t get paid enough, probably trained enough to deal with a situation like that, 50/50 you’re going to die. I would at most expect him to shepard people to safety and wait for backup, anything above and beyond would be a bonus.

TallPaul1878 · 23 Feb 2018 at 07:19

robfosters said:
This.

Sounds like a case of cowardice to me. I’d be fuming at him if I was one of the parents.

You don't know what his orders were. Apparently the security guard has resigned due to the outrage about it. Scenarios of shootings like this have shown that a guard armed with a pistol will be killed by an attacker armed with an automatic rifle.

It's unfortunate that this guard was unable to stop the shooter but to start putting blame on him is despicable.

TallPaul1878 · 23 Feb 2018 at 07:37

Rroff said:
I disagree with that - the largest number of fatalities are usually in the opening 30 seconds or so of these scenarios and/or in situations like Vegas where a bump stock allows a significant sustained volume of fire massively increasing casualty numbers.

(In the Florida shooting with a semi-automatic AR-15 he shot 15 rounds in slightly over 10 seconds and assumedly 30 rounds in just under 30 seconds in the opening moments in comparison with a bump stock theoretically could have worked through anything upto 8 magazines of 30 rounds).

There are very few people who truly can fire with both the rapidity approach that and retaining a useful amount of accuracy while doing so using a semi automatic never mind bolt action weapon although there are some who have a talent for it.

Although you can usually "derate" a fully automatic weapon bump stocks also theoretically allow a significant volume of fire for longer with reduced potential for malfunction that comes from running a gun hot with full automatic speeds even bursted which tends to result in rapid heating/cooling cycles.

The second point is one of the reasons why I'm against a knee jerk full on banning of guns, etc. if people are this ****** in the head they will find a way eventually to do harm but proper regulation of firearms helps to minimise the potential for that.

An elastic band can do the same job. You wrap an elastic band around the trigger and the forces of the rifle act on the elastic band causing the trigger to reset and bounce of the shooter's finger. It's effectively the same way a tac-trigger works.

https://youtu.be/PVfwFP_RwTQ

People who want to find ways of getting around the law will do that. That's what I mean by banning the bump stock being dumb. It will achieve nothing. Even banning assault rifles will do nothing to rid Americans of their murderous intent.

Trifid · 23 Feb 2018 at 08:13

Surely the training is not to go into a dangerous situation alone, call for assistance and await further instruction? He would not know the exact location of the shooter and he would have no one covering his back.

Hedge · 23 Feb 2018 at 08:32

TallPaul1878 said:
People who want to find ways of getting around the law will do that. That's what I mean by banning the bump stock being dumb. It will achieve nothing. Even banning assault rifles will do nothing to rid Americans of their murderous intent.

Its a minor step but just because bad things happen it doesnt mean people shouldn't at least try to regulate things.

Until America decide to become more strict on gun control this whole thing continues as usual and we will never know if things can improve.

They cant get much worse.

gettothechopper · 23 Feb 2018 at 08:40

So this is why the answer cant be to arm teachers

An actual law enforcement officer was present and didnt go in and stop it, and is now being treated as a coward
What teacher is going to want to take his place?
Have the responsability for having a weapon around loads of kids
Possibly have to go chasing after bad guys in a shoot out to the death (for one of you, including having to execute one of your own students)
Possibly fail to stop them in time and you are a complete coward
When you actually signed up just to teach some kids science or maths or geography now you are part Navy Seal part SWAT team?

Not much of a deterrent either - didnt stop the kid attacking knowing an actual Sherrif is posted at the school, how is an armed teacher going to be better?