Tory MP Sir David Amess murdered

[Dis86]

So hang on, if a bunch of people who don't like ice-cream get together, let's call them the Iscream movement, and one decides to go nuts and kill an ice-cream man, is that a response to ice-cream?

There wouldn't be an Iscream movement etc if we didn't have ice-cream.

Yes. That's correct. But because ice cream isn't something fundamentally bad you don't ban ice cream. You look at the movement and the means.
If the means is, let's say easy access to rocket launchers, you ban rocket launchers. In the same way that we restrict gun and even knife access.
You then look at the ideology and tackle that in the same way that multiple groups are banned in this country and schemes are in place to tackle some ideologies.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Yes. That's correct. But because ice cream isn't something fundamentally bad you don't ban ice cream. You look at the movement and the means.

Immigration isn't fundamentally bad, so we shouldn't get rid of that either.

 

[Dis86]

Immigration isn't fundamentally bad, so we shouldn't get rid of that either.

And I haven't said we should. To some people it is however. Like this chap in question.

This, however, is why we haven't got rid of immigration but we have instead challenged his ideology.

 

[inogen]

Yes. That's correct. But because ice cream isn't something fundamentally bad you don't ban ice cream. You look at the movement and the means.
If the means is, let's say easy access to rocket launchers, you ban rocket launchers. In the same way that we restrict gun and even knife access.
You then look at the ideology and tackle that in the same way that multiple groups are banned in this country and schemes are in place to tackle some ideologies.

And who gets to decide what's bad?

Obviously religious extremism isn't wanted, however, immigration isn't the cause of that is it? So why is attacking immigration a thing? Or foreign workers?

Essentially, we've got to a point where enough people have got so wound up over not liking brown people and eastern europeans that we've not got enough lorry drivers and the shops are half empty. It's insane.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

One might say it holds the same amount of credibility and balance as saying Conservative party policies were responsible for the murder of Sir David Amass.

You're right, niether viewpoint holds credibility. I must say Mr. Wilson, I never thought I'd hear you say on these forums that immigration isn't a problem. That's some impressive personal growth right there.

Which you do not seem to be challenging.

I didn't think I needed to spell it out, I thought it was obvious?

Fine - no matter Amass's voting record, opinions or party affiliation, he didn't deserve what happened to him nor should anyone be given leniency for what they did to him based on their opposition to those stances.

Better?

 

[Deleted member 66701]

And I haven't said we should. To some people it is however. Like this chap in question.

This, however, is why we haven't got rid of immigration but we have instead challenged his ideology.

Oh ok, I thought you were arguing for something different. It appears we are in agreement then.

 

[Dis86]

And who gets to decide what's bad?

Obviously religious extremism isn't wanted, however, immigration isn't the cause of that is it? So why is attacking immigration a thing?

Essentially, we've got to a point where enough people have got so wound up over not liking brown people that we've not got enough lorry drivers. It's insane.

Immigration is a big cause of it. The UK was traditionally a Christian society (at least in the last 1000 years). What we have had in the last 50 years in particular is a large influx of other religions imported with their followers. Often these other religions are incompatible with our values and cultures, although only typically when encountered at their most fundental or extreme ends.

You do have to ask the question though, why do you think a majority of people voted to leave Europe if they were so sick of brown people? What are the brown people doing to cause that hatred?

 

[FoxEye]

And who gets to decide what's bad?

Ultimately, it's supposed to be the electorate. But we all know how that works in practice.

Obviously religious extremism isn't wanted, however, immigration isn't the cause of that is it? So why is attacking immigration a thing? Or foreign workers?

Essentially, we've got to a point where enough people have got so wound up over not liking brown people and eastern europeans that we've not got enough lorry drivers and the shops are half empty. It's insane.

It's not so black and white as this. Many industries have since admitted that they were "addicted to cheap forein labour (my jee key isn't working, sorry )" and this will surprise absolutely nobody.

(thank oodness we don't have all that many words with jee in them! Stupid keyboard)

 

[StriderX]

Maybe he felt strongly that the whole sale changes and crimes that he wpuld habe witnessed were not being addressed by the government and were infact being swept under the carpet so as not to cause sensitivity.

Obviously what he did was abhorrantly wrong. Stupid, ridiculous, and something no one or no family should have to bear the consequences of.

What makes any terrorist likely has nothing to do with the out-group they've decided is the source of their problems which are far more likely to just be due to bullying, lack of opportunity and loneliness.

Blaming immigration is easy, but solves nothing because we've put too much emphasis on unmitigated self-interest as a culture and left communities to rot that could otherwise have provided stability to people that needed it.

 

[The Running Man]

What makes any terrorist likely has nothing to do with the out-group they've decided is the source of their problems which are far more likely to just be due to bullying, lack of opportunity and loneliness.

Blaming immigration is easy, but solves nothing because we've put too much emphasis on unmitigated self-interest as a culture and left communities to rot that could otherwise have provided stability to people that needed it.

Blaming immigration is easy for a number of reasons, firstly an extremely high number of recent terror attacks have been conducted by immigrants, or their children.

You talk about bullying, opportunity etc. Truth is, the Somalian in question had a life of luxury.

And the other inconvenient truth is that life in the UK is vastly better with more opportunity than most people would get ANYWHERE in the world outside of a couple if countries in the EU.

You think opportunity is better in Pakistan or Afghanistan? So why come here and commit gross atrocities?

I think fundamentally there is both religious and cultural hate against the British by people we are inviting in, they know we are a soft touch. And it gets exploited.

 

[Tefal]

Immigration is a big cause of it. The UK was traditionally a Christian society (at least in the last 1000 years). What we have had in the last 50 years in particular is a large influx of other religions imported with their followers. Often these other religions are incompatible with our values and cultures, although only typically when encountered at their most fundental or extreme ends.

You do have to ask the question though, why do you think a majority of people voted to leave Europe if they were so sick of brown people? What are the brown people doing to cause that hatred?

Tbf Christianity is incompatable with our values and culture.

 

[Tefal]

Blaming immigration is easy for a number of reasons, firstly an extremely high number of recent terror attacks have been conducted by immigrants, or their children.

You talk about bullying, opportunity etc. Truth is, the Somalian in question had a life of luxury.

And the other inconvenient truth is that life in the UK is vastly better with more opportunity than most people would get ANYWHERE in the world outside of a couple if countries in the EU.

You think opportunity is better in Pakistan or Afghanistan? So why come here and commit gross atrocities?

I think fundamentally there is both religious and cultural hate against the British by people we are inviting in, they know we are a soft touch. And it gets exploited.

Fun fact, if pointless, the uk benifits cap is over twice the world average wage

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Easy fix: make all U.K. benefits strictly for people born in the U.K.

 

[explicit4u]

Easy fix: make all U.K. benefits strictly for people born in the U.K.

What does this fix?

 

[Terminal_Boy]

What does this fix?

People trying to get to the U.K. for all the free stuff.

 

[Dis86]

Tbf Christianity is incompatable with our values and culture.

Idd. Thankfully we seem to have few fundamental followers in this country.

 

[VincentHanna]

Easy fix: make all U.K. benefits strictly for people born in the U.K.

So let's say an American man comes here to work for a tech company in his early 20's. He lives and works here for 20 years and pays tax, but then his company goes bankrupt and he loses his job.

He has rent/mortgage to pay, bills, food etc.

You would deny him this safety net that we all benefit from, because he wasn't born here?

 

[The Running Man]

So let's say an American man comes here to work for a tech company in his early 20's. He lives and works here for 20 years and pays tax, but then his company goes bankrupt and he loses his job.

He has rent/mortgage to pay, bills, food etc.

You would deny him this safety net that we all benefit from, because he wasn't born here?

What would he get if he came from the UK to Somalia?

 

[Efour]

Cant you mugs just dig up the last benefit/immigration thread for all your answers....?

Regardless of what you think I've spoken to plenty of immigrants in Sweden, who's ultimate goal was to get to live in the UK. Obviously now its a lot harder to move from the EU to the UK so it looks like they are just piling in boats now.

I don't think its the unlimited benefits that attracts them, more the fact we speak English and "Manchester United"
These 3rd world dudes grow up with the BBC and learning that the UK is a fair and lawful country.
misguided fools. ITs our culture that attracts them, the one that we blast into their mudhuts 24/7.
Stop speaking English if you want less undesirables turning up in boats.

 

[deuse]

So let's say an American man comes here to work for a tech company in his early 20's. He lives and works here for 20 years and pays tax, but then his company goes bankrupt and he loses his job.

He has rent/mortgage to pay, bills, food etc.

You would deny him this safety net that we all benefit from, because he wasn't born here?

As soon as they're contract\job is finished.
They would go back to the US.
Unless he\she finds another job.

But they will still have to pay USA taxes
So your point is mute.