Transgender MTF picked for Olympics weightlifting

[Participant]

Here's an example of transphobia, in my opinion.

It's an example of science-backed rational thought, albeit not very articulately conveyed.

 

[FishFluff]

Those are 2 different views though, unless I'm missing something?

Why would you call a transgender woman a man, unless you're denying trans people exist?

 

[MatsyLR]

Why would you call a transgender woman a man, unless you're denying trans people exist?

Biology?
I'd refer to a transgender woman as...a transgender woman. I wouldn't call that person a man or woman as there is a difference biologically using those terms and I wouldn't use man due to it being offensive to them. They are in fact a man though, biologically, nothing can change that.

I would also make an effort to call them by there chosen name.

 

[Reality|Bites]

as biologically he is still a man maybe?

 

[SexyGreyFox]

My mate is a MTF Transgender and used to be my drummer so I got in touch and asked her side of this.
Now when she was male you wouldn't argue with him, big lad and could carry is metal drum stands case in no problem plus our 15" bass bins.
I noticed that around 6 months later she needed help with the stands case and couldn't help with the bass bins.
She said that taking all the medication took her strength away and she doesn't think she could ever get it back HOWEVER she agrees that Trans athletes should have their own Olympics.

 

[Joseph Clements]

I don't see why "inclusivity" is necessarily a good thing here, for example, the current guidelines don't require surgery AFAIK but do require testosterone suppression, not all trans-identifying people do suppress their testosterone. If you're simply pro-inclusivity then shouldn't those trans people also be allowed to compete?

Sure

If not then why not? And if so can you see that there would be an even bigger issue for women's sports if it was just down to self ID?

Maybe, but probably not. I mean, let's wait and see if this instance is the issue it's being made out to be first.

Currently, those trans people would have to compete in male events - surely the more inclusive option would be to have a couple of trans categories - high T and low T perhaps. There are multiple categories at the Paralympics and we're talking about a small % of the population so it would fit in nicely there.

I feel like this isn't the way, but I'm a little work-frazzled to articulate why.

Again, I'll just say my main point wasn't necessarily to weigh in on the discussion so much as address the disappointing way some people have conducted themselves. There's clearly plenty of intelligent, informed discussion and debate on the forum from what I've read so far, but it skipped a few posts in this thread.

 

[plasmahal]

the current guidelines don't require surgery AFAIK but do require testosterone suppression

If she meets the the requirements laid down by the IOC, it should be OK.

It's like performance drug testing in reverse, if they test and meet the requirements, then they are allowed to comptete.

It should be no difference in the process for qualification.

 

[plasmahal]

Biology?
I'd refer to a transgender woman as...a transgender woman. I wouldn't call that person a man or woman as there is a difference biologically using those terms and I wouldn't use man due to it being offensive to them. They are in fact a man though, biologically, nothing can change that.

I would also make an effort to call them by there chosen name.

You still don't understand the difference between biological sex and gender.

 

[loftie]

Weightlifting as a sport has 10 weight classes per sex, 7 of which are contested at the Olympics. Hubbard competes in the +87kg class, which is essentially 'weight unlimited' and because 'weight moves weight' up to a point, some of the women in this category are huge. Li Wenwen who is the near-certain gold medalist for Tokyo (unless she gets injured) is about 148kg at around 5ft10.

Already in GOAT contention for the women's superheavyweight class:

Was watching that vid when I noticed Hubbard was competing in it. Came 6th.

 

[Dis86]

I've let this thread play out and there's already 3 posters denying that a transgender woman is/can be anything other than male. This is the part where you now claim that's not the same as them saying trans people don't exist and then we can both go about our day.

Oh, you've let it play out? How generous of you!
You clearly don't understand the difference between sex and gender, as if you did you'd realise what they're stating is factually accurate.
So, Pinocchio, where is the hatred and denial that trans people exist?

 

[Freakbro]

It seems the point here is that sport is fundamentally differentiated on a biological difference. You can't argue that gender =/= biological sex, which I agree with, and then ignore that argument when it comes to aspects that are separated on a biological basis.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Was watching that vid when I noticed Hubbard was competing in it. Came 6th.

That's interesting, so not the headline we were led to believe.

Does anybody know if she is lifting the same as a woman than when she was a man?

 

[Deleted User 298457]

lol, seems leopard ate its spots.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/india-willoughby-sensationally-quits-gb-083427603.html

 

[Somnambulist]

Was watching that vid when I noticed Hubbard was competing in it. Came 6th.

That's interesting, so not the headline we were led to believe.

Does anybody know if she is lifting the same as a woman than when she was a man?

Laurel's best recorded total competing in the male +105kg category was 300kg in 1998.
Best total competing in the female +87kg category = 285kg a couple of years ago aged 40-41

I imagine actual bodyweight hasn't changed much as in both cases it's 'weigh as much as you want' so there's little reason to slim down in the super classes.

To take that 300kg in it's proper context, the lowest total in the men's super-heavyweight class at the same WC's that video was from was 366kg and the winning total some 25 places above was 484kg. If we go down to the next Olympic weight class at the same comp, the highest and lowest totals were 429kg and 322kg from a pool of about 20 countries/lifters. If we go down to the next Olympic weight class (there is a weight class in between but because it's non-Olympic you don't get high-level athletes compete in it) then it's 410kg and 295kg where about 40 athletes from different countries lifted.

This is a sport where once you're at senior level in your prime even putting a kg here and there on your lifts is an achievement and what the above hopefully demonstrates is that Laurel whether 20 years ago or now was nowhere near elite, (and did not compete/qualify for any major international events). Therefore it's not a surprise that a non-elite biological male is not automatically outlifting actual every single world-class elite biological women, but is still landing high enough to win gold medals at lesser high level international events (Pacific Games, Roma World Cup) and place in the top 10 at the biggest ones.

 

[dowie]

Sure

Can you not see the issue there?

Maybe, but probably not. I mean, let's wait and see if this instance is the issue it's being made out to be first.

What are you waiting to see exactly?

 

[dowie]

If she meets the the requirements laid down by the IOC, it should be OK.

It's like performance drug testing in reverse, if they test and meet the requirements, then they are allowed to comptete.

It should be no difference in the process for qualification.

Not really, just pointing at the current rules and saying they allow it isn't a reason in an of itself to support those rules of the fact she's allowed to compete.

It's already a given that she's allowed to compete, highlighting that is rather moot, it's a non-argument as far as the question of whether that should really be the case is concerned.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Laurel's best recorded total competing in the male +105kg category was 300kg in 1998.
Best total competing in the female +87kg category = 285kg a couple of years ago aged 40-41

I imagine actual bodyweight hasn't changed much as in both cases it's 'weigh as much as you want' so there's little reason to slim down in the super classes.

To take that 300kg in it's proper context, the lowest total in the men's super-heavyweight class at the same WC's that video was from was 366kg and the winning total some 25 places above was 484kg. If we go down to the next Olympic weight class at the same comp, the highest and lowest totals were 429kg and 322kg from a pool of about 20 countries/lifters. If we go down to the next Olympic weight class (there is a weight class in between but because it's non-Olympic you don't get high-level athletes compete in it) then it's 410kg and 295kg where about 40 athletes from different countries lifted.

This is a sport where once you're at senior level in your prime even putting a kg here and there on your lifts is an achievement and what the above hopefully demonstrates is that Laurel whether 20 years ago or now was nowhere near elite, (and did not compete/qualify for any major international events). Therefore it's not a surprise that a non-elite biological male is not automatically outlifting actual every single world-class elite biological women, but is still landing high enough to win gold medals at lesser high level international events (Pacific Games, Roma World Cup) and place in the top 10 at the biggest ones.

Thanks

 

[Nasher]

Why would you call a transgender woman a man, unless you're denying trans people exist?

A DNA test would say they are still a man.

"Trans" people exist, but a "trans women" is not a women.

 

[dowie]

I've let this thread play out and there's already 3 posters denying that a transgender woman is/can be anything other than male. This is the part where you now claim that's not the same as them saying trans people don't exist and then we can both go about our day.

Make that 4 if you like, how is stating a basic fact re: biology equivalent to a claim that trans people don't exist?

Those are 2 different views though, unless I'm missing something?

It's actually just a basic error on the other poster's part, I don't think many people dispute that trans women are male. The dispute generally involves the claim that they're women: "Transwomen are women".

Why would you call a transgender woman a man, unless you're denying trans people exist?

See this is a different claim.

Various people who will state that a transwoman is a woman and not a man would still acknowledge that she is male, they're referring to gender in the first instance and sex in the second!

Of course, it is also a legitimate position for people to state that they don't accept this gender ideology, some gender-critical feminists for example will refute that transwomen are women.

Neither of those things are equivalent to a claim that transgender women don't exist. You can both accept that trans women exist and treat them with respect, use their pronouns etc.. without accepting that they literally are women. Or indeed, that they're not male.

You'd have to be pretty far gone tbh.. to actually believe that transwomen aren't just "women" in the gender identity sense, but literally female too - that's just delusional.

 

[Angilion]

Maybe a solution is to properly seperate sex and gender, since they're different things. Make up some new words rather than having the same words for both sex and gender.