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Trump's continuing war on China . . . Making America Great Again

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by stockhausen, May 20, 2019.

  1. mmj_uk

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 26, 2003

    Posts: 22,739

    Communism with private ownership is actually Fascism, Hitler (Socialist) did the same thing business was privately owned but ultimately dictated to by the government and capitalists who wouldn't play ball (Jews) were genocided like Socialists always do.

    Both Communism and Fascism are different types of Socialism. Mussolini was a Socialist before embracing Fascism and so was Hitler, same pig different lipstick. Fascism isn't far right it's on the left with its other other totalitarian/collectivist anti-individualist/anti-freedom spiritual brothers.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  2. CAT-THE-FIFTH

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 9, 2009

    Posts: 18,539

    Location: Planet Earth

    We are having this same discussion in the mobile phone section.

    We can't moan 100% at China since this is a problem somewhat of our making and they only give a damn about their own people. Remember how Japan and South Korea came from nowhere and dominated various industries? How did you think that happened. It was short termism with our companies - they palmed off making stuff to those countries,who eventually learnt how to do stuff themselves and then cut out the middle-man. We did the same with China. History is repeating itself.

    This is a bigger problem - look at games. All the increasing prices,loot crates,etc are down to this obsession with short term margins. Games devs are still paid a pittance,so many studios are shut down,etc yet games publishers are having record profits year after year,yet their stock can still fall if it is not "record enough",and this is a real problem.

    Remember,sub prime?? It was speculation on repackaged bad debts. The dot-com bubble,speculation on profits. The 1929 crash,speculation on profits and margins fuel by massive consumer debt.

    Now,there is speculation on companies having to make rapid growth phase profit and margin increases which are more typical of small startups,instead of slower and steadier growth. This has lead to companies(even Apple) still making record profits and margins and still having their stock fall.

    This is the bigger problem here - to keep margins and profits ever increasing at record levels,our lot cut longterm R and D,sit on developed tech,since its cheaper to use existing stuff,cut production costs by cutting jobs over here,and then jack up pricing leading to plenty of wiggle space for competitors to fill. This means our pace of innovation is slowed,and other countries can catch up. Its complacency which has lead to this,the same complacency which we had with Japan and South Korea. Now we take for granted their leadership in various areas. This wasn't always the case.

    So even if we moved all production out of China,our lot will probably move it to India,Africa or somewhere else and in 10 to 20 years time,the same kind of discussions will happen.

    The thing is it wouldn't matter so much for lower cost items,raw and processed materials,certain kinds of food,etc but when luxury and high priced items are built for a pittance instead of our countries and sold for a high price,its a joke.

    In the case of Apple their fans have been going on for years on how much money they make and how much money they have tucked away - it just shows you how cheap the products are to make,and how much they are selling them for.

    The other problem is our companies want to overprice their cheaply made products,then even if we reduce the amount of Chinese made products we buy,it won't matter as the rest of the world who is more price sensitive gets swamped by their products,made at similar cost but at lower margins.

    Its a joke when lower margins means a £700 Chinese phone and a £1200 Apple/Samsung phone,neither of which were considered low price-points 10 years ago.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  3. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 3,966

    Trying to develop and build new infrastructure in an advanced western nation is harder than in China for several reasons. For a start, with our own countries so heavily developed there's not a lot of space to build new railway lines etc without incurring high costs in buying up land, disruption to services etc. In China by contrast, the government just turfs people off their land to build and as the railway lines are all new, there's no services to disrupt. Similarly, the cost to build in the West is much higher due to factors such as health and safety, wages and so on.

    The fact is the very same laws that protect us as individuals and grant us rights are the very same laws that prohibit advances. We need a philosopher king to crush democracy for a decade or two, sort the infrastructure problems, then a return of democracy.
     
  4. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 5,396

    Location: UK

    Really? Let me know when The US implements social credit points for their citizens. Your post has no basis in reality and no substance at all.
     
  5. Minusorange

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 25, 2005

    Posts: 3,793

    Are you saying America is Fascist because they are using this order to tell private businesses how they should do business ?
     
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 18,718

    Look at all the fascists. :cool:
     
  7. jsmoke

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 7,063

    We already have that with our credit scores to a degree.
     
  8. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 5,396

    Location: UK

    It's nothing like the same thing at all. The government encourages others to report you for playing consoles and then labels you with "idle person" to shame you while giving your location and details out to anyone around you, other things such as jaywalking, not visiting your parents will get you on the crap list too lol. Once blacklisted you cant buy a home, get a loan have your passport taken away etc etc.

    Yeah that's definitely the same as you having a ropey creditscore no one cares about.
     
  9. esmozz

    Gangster

    Joined: Oct 24, 2013

    Posts: 117

    Didn't they get caught tapping Angela Merkel's phone a few years ago?
     
  10. CAT-THE-FIFTH

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 9, 2009

    Posts: 18,539

    Location: Planet Earth

    Sorry,but whereas I don't necessarily agree we have anything like a social credit score,a poor credit score has no effect?? What?? How are you going to get a mortgage,or a phone contract with a crap credit score,and even if you did you paying even more interest,and need a much bigger deposit for a mortgage,hence costing you much more. Even if you want a Credit Card a poor credit score will mean you have to get one with a ridiculously high interest rate.

    Also do you think banks will give out loans,mortgages,etc as easily as they did 20 years ago after the subprime bubble burst. Emm,OK then. They even held back short term loans to viable businesses after that for years.
     
  11. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 3,966

    Fascism is perhaps a form of national socialism, but you cannot compare it to socialism in the popular sense. Fascists are opposed to that sort of socialism.
     
  12. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 5,396

    Location: UK

    Does your next door neighbour care about your creditscore? Or anybody who lives within 50 miles of you?

    No they dont.

    I dont think you are understanding anything that's been posted, chinas social credit system is NOTHING like the same as a creditscore here. You're not shamed by anyone living close to you because you didnt pay your mobile bill one month are you? Because nobody around you knows about it.
     
  13. CAT-THE-FIFTH

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 9, 2009

    Posts: 18,539

    Location: Planet Earth

    No you said:

    Social credit is not about "who cares" it literally limits what loans you can get,etc. But to say a credit score is something"nobody cares about" is not true. Yes,people do care about credit scores - since the banks and institutions care.

    If you have a crap credit score you are most likely poor,or have real financial problems,and if you don't think that does not affect how people perceive you in a materialistic world,then why do people try to show off how "wealthy" they are on social media.

    Try getting that nice new car with crap credit scores,or a nice new house. In fact try renting a nice place with a poor credit score - I am sure the renting agencies don't care??

    Most people buy things using loans like houses and cars FFS. Credit scores not only affect ability to get loans,but also any longterm contract like housing contracts,since it shows your ability to manage money.
     
  14. Avenged7Fold

    Capodecina

    Joined: Sep 12, 2012

    Posts: 11,619

    Location: Surrey

    To add a bit of humour to the thread:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 5,396

    Location: UK

    You still aren't getting it are you, you're the only one talking about a UK creditscore and getting a mortgage.

    The other guy compared our credit score to chinas social credit system, which looks at anything the country deems as unsavoury behaviour and even has a geo location app that shows everyone around (with all your personal Information) all those who are blacklisted so other citizens can monitor them and report them. Things such as not visiting your parents, not sorting your rubbish, walking on the wrong side of the road, criticising the government online or in conversation, all gets you blacklisted, unable to fly etc etc.

    I'll say this one more time for your benefit as you seem unable to grasp that this, nobody cares about your creditscore, because its irrelevant to anyone but you and doesnt effect your social standing or your freedoms, it isnt something anyone could ever know about you, nor would they care if you told them.
     
  16. soundb0y

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 19, 2009

    Posts: 2,756

    Location: Hereford

    Good on him they have taken the **** for far too long imo.
     
  17. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,370

    An interesting observation there; Japan was "guided" by America following World War II and the same applied to South Korea after the Korean War, both countries are now US "allies".

    America did nothing positive in relation to Russia after the end of the Cold War (that worked out well) and now appears determined to embark on a Trade War with China, somehow I can't see that working out well although the US "Defence" Industry will probably be happy ;)
     
  18. Malevolence

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 21, 2011

    Posts: 12,333

    And what happens when China retaliates and restricts the export of REEs?
     
  19. Minusorange

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 25, 2005

    Posts: 3,793

  20. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,610

    Location: Canada

    Presumably Rare Earth Elements, which are currently mostly extracted in China.