Trying to pull the statue of Saddam down

afraser2k · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:00

Originally posted by dirtydog
When we spend billions to liberate other countries which have no oil or strategic / economic importance, I will eat my words.

And how would you like to pay for all those wars? Our economy wouldn't be able to cope with the tax rises involved in such a scheme.

Raider · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:00

Originally posted by dirtydog

When we spend billions to liberate other countries which have no oil or strategic / economic importance, I will eat my words.

What about Kosovo? No money there, no stategic advantage. And we were helping muslims..

And the UN didn't want to help.. seems to go against everything you say..

elbows · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:03

Sorry but I havent seen one ounce of evidence that in any way disproves the oil motive. I cant convince you that it is about oil, you cant convince me that it isnt. Stalemate, so we'll have to wait and see.

I cant believe it, I really really cannot believe that so many people believe the primary motivation for this war was liberating the Iraqi people.

As I said Im very very happy that Saddams regime is gone, I have a bit of hope that international pressure can lead to a decent future for Iraq, but not to much its far too early to say.

Come on the liberation thing was the last angle that America & Britain used to get backing for this war, but officially it was to remove the danger of his weapons of mass destruction. If you believe that official line then all other results are a happy consequence but not the stated reason for this war at all. How can anyone dispute that?

Élynduil · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:03

Originally posted by MindYerBeak
The anti war brigade were proved wrong when the Iraqis started dancing in the streets.

All the posts like this confuse me, I don't think anyone who was againsts the war didn't think we'd see scenes such as this and that the Iraqi people wouln't be happy about it. There are so many reasons to be against the war, but this was never anything to do with any of them. You are simply being selective of what people are saying and putting words into everyones mouth.

theleg · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:07

Originally posted by elbows
I cant convince you that it is about oil, you cant convince me that it isnt. Stalemate, so we'll have to wait and see.

Perhaps thats because most of us dont think the war has taken place for a single reason..Oil was a reason, it was not THE reason..Liberation was a reason, not THE reason. WMD were a reason, not THE reason. Im sure there are other reasons as well..

Why is this so hard to understand?

homerio · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:10

was interesting that some of the countries most against the war had contracts saying that they would get oil from iraq once sanctions were lifted

elbows · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:13

Fair enough. Often when people decide to do something though they have one particular motive in mind and others are just bonuses or things that are used to do the sell and justify the act.

Anyway no matter, the results are what count now, we've seen bad things happen and good things happen because of this war, I just hope our attention towards Iraq doesnt fade as fast as the Afghanistan mess.

Yeah didnt we liberate the Afghan people from a terrible regime? Well the people there dont look to free to me right now, its a tragedy

I dont want to argue with anyone anymore, I want things to work out well, but what can I do? Im so tired of moaning about all this stuff, there must be something more constructive I can do - any ideas?

Christo · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:20

Originally posted by elbows

Yeah didnt we liberate the Afghan people from a terrible regime? Well the people there dont look to free to me right now, its a tragedy

I dont want to argue with anyone anymore, I want things to work out well, but what can I do? Im so tired of moaning about all this stuff, there must be something more constructive I can do - any ideas?

If you dont want to argue why make such argumentitive statements!? Excuse me what is wrong with Afghanistan :confused:

elbows · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:23

Oh I didnt think the failures in Afghanistan were in dispute, I'll send this thread too far off topic if I go on about that much now, I'll start another thread sometime but basically warlords still control most of the country and only Kabul is secure in any traditional sense. In other words nation building in afghanistan has been pretty rubbish.

Christo · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:25

Originally posted by elbows
Oh I didnt think the failures in Afghanistan were in dispute, I'll send this thread too far off topic if I go on about that much now, I'll start another thread sometime but basically warlords still control most of the country and only Kabul is secure in any traditional sense. In other words nation building in afghanistan has been pretty rubbish.

I understand that but nobody can argue that Afghanistan was better off with the Taliban, so I fail to see why you made the statement previous.

theleg · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:26

America freed the Afghans, the UN screwed up the after sales support.

I dont doubt that a lot of it is because of certain parts of society screaming about imperialism. if the US troops had actually stayed in any decent number, they would have been villfied by the left. They pull out, it all goes to hell and guess what, villified by the left.

elbows · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:27

Originally posted by Chrisp7
I understand that but nobody can argue that Afghanistan was better off with the Taliban, so I fail to see why you made the statement previous.

The point was that theres no great joy in liberating people if you remove one bad thing only to let other bad stuff happen in its place. Rather central to what will happen in Iraq in my opinion.

elbows · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:29

Originally posted by Balddog
I dont doubt that a lot of it is because of certain parts of society screaming about imperialism. if the US troops had actually stayed in any decent number, they would have been villfied by the left. They pull out, it all goes to hell and guess what, villified by the left.

I do doubt that very much. All the media stories I read were that the US lost interest, they dont listen to the left so I cant blame the left for that mess! Hah in fact I find that quite funny, the left are interested in nation building, Bush isnt. He even said during his election campaign "I dont believe in nation building, I think our troops should be used to fight and win war"

Christo · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:30

Originally posted by elbows
The point was that theres no great joy in liberating people if you remove one bad thing only to let other bad stuff happen in its place. Rather central to what will happen in Iraq in my opinion.

I agree with that statement in general but the greater evil of Saddam Hussian has been removed, which to me is a great joy.

afraser2k · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:31

But in Afghanistan it would have just plunged back into civil war if the warlords weren't put into power as a council. The government there is also an interim one that will be replaced by a democratic vote in time.

Rich_L · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:31

True, but Iraq is an utterly different situation to Afganistan.

Afganistan is a *&^%hole of a country, due to all the wars/occupations etc there is barely any infrastructure, and the current generation of people have never seen anything but conflict. Because of this, Afganistan is not being 'restored' to its previous state but instead the whole process of nation-building must be started pretty much from scratch.

Iraq on the other hand has a fairly good civilian infrastructure etc, and the oil which they can sell will fund the rapid rehabilitation of the nation, and hopefully the flourishing of a Middle-Eastern democracy.

Bush isnt. He even said during his election campaign "I dont believe in nation building, I think our troops should be used to fight and win war"

Exactly as it should be, US troops fight and win war, then let the UN and the people of the nation build the nation

Will · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:34

Originally posted by elbows
I do doubt that very much. All the media stories I read were that the US lost interest, they dont listen to the left so I cant blame the left for that mess! Hah in fact I find that quite funny, the left are interested in nation building, Bush isnt. He even said during his election campaign "I dont believe in nation building, I think our troops should be used to fight and win war"

I agree with Bulldog - the left has derided any war on Iraq as expansionist imperialism, only about taking control of a country for its resources and strategic importance, and talked up the prospect of iraqis under a puppet regime or a US military government, and some have suggested such a war could bring in a new era of colonialism (such sentiments have been echoed on Newsnight on and off for months by various guests and politicians).

Yet when the US is not imperialist, ala Afghanistan, and walks away, they get flak for that as well!

With some people, not necessarily ones here, i get the impression that the U.S. or western governments as a whole can do no good whatever they do, and thats an impression promoted by the left far more than there is any truth to it IMHO.

Over Clocker · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:36

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

elbows · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:36

I didnt mean that the UN should not be involved in Iraq, or that it was just Americas fault that Afghanistan went wrong.

Yes Iraq is very different to Afghanistan, my point was that America needs to have the will to do the right thing, and as they are providing force then they should ensure that the force is used to finish the job of creating the right security circumstances across the whole country that is needed before stable nation building can begin.

Christo · 9 Apr 2003 at 18:43

Originally posted by elbows
I didnt mean that the UN should not be involved in Iraq, or that it was just Americas fault that Afghanistan went wrong.

Yes Iraq is very different to Afghanistan, my point was that America needs to have the will to do the right thing, and as they are providing force then they should ensure that the force is used to finish the job of creating the right security circumstances across the whole country that is needed before stable nation building can begin.

I agree - but lets not Criticize the US before the war has been won!