Uber lose battle in Supreme Court on drivers right

[dowie]

Seems a bit odd still to me, if a driver can choose to sign in and make themselves available when they choose that is very different to being the recipient of a fixed rota / shift patterns handed down from management.

Get uber app

Do 2 years in a big city... full employment rights.

Move to very remote area, turn on app... then go back inside and watch TV/work a different job.

Still earn min wage for doing nothing... cos you’re an employee now and uber has to pay you because you turned on the app.

(Obvs they probably don’t offer a service in the outer Hebrides in reality but basic incentives are there - unless they seek to regularly sack unproductive drivers you could get a min wage from an area with relatively fewer jobs and perhaps the way to game it is to double or triple up with rival apps - get paid 3*min wage by turning them on simultaneously in a low demand area)

 

[Semple]

I've always disagreed with the "Gig economy" but this could be the death knell for many companies and loss of many jobs.

When it costs double to have your kebab delivered, you're more likely to opt for pickup rather than delivery.

Was going to comment about the food delivery side of things which hasn't really been mentioned in this thread.

Taxi's should be a lot easier to increase prices in order to pay minimum wage. But this could seriously ruin the likes of Just Eat/Deliveroo/UberEats, you'll most likely have delivery fees going up (to cover delivery wages) which will then put a lot of people off -people are hardly likely to pay some guy £5 to deliver a kebab from just down the road.

 

[Semple]

Seems a bit odd still to me, if a driver can choose to sign in and make themselves available when they choose that is very different to being the recipient of a fixed rota / shift patterns handed down from management.

Was having this discussion with a friend, if you're now entitled to minimum wage, you can absolutely bet uber will ensure you work the full hour for it. Currently a driver may take a 30 min fare out of town, and then hang around out of town for a nearby return fare - rather than driving all the way back into town to pick up a 5 min fare (all of which eats into earnings). The former way allowed drivers to pick and choose their fares based on location/destination/distance/duration of fare. Now many will be forced to pick up fares from wherever they're instructed to because they're now on the clock.

I presume this changes Ubers business model significantly as well - as in the driver keeps all his earnings (minus whatever fee they pay to use the platform). I'd assume if you're now an employee of uber, then all your earnings now go directly to Uber and you'll be paid a wage based on number of hours worked.

 

[dl8860]

This seems like a really bad idea to me. The beauty of uber for both users and drivers is the flexibility. I think a lot of the drivers might find that what they gain in stability, they'll lose in overall actual pay and beneficial flexibility. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[thenewoc]

To me, it feels like a good thing. Appreciate i am not an user driver who could see my income fall as a result of this, though!

Ultimately, everyone wants public services, but they have to be paid for somehow.

Much of the disruptor services leech off existing infrastructure without paying in. I don't see that as a viable long-term situation for any taxpayer.

They're all required to pay vehicle licence costs, fuel duty, MOT's where necessary on age of vehicle, income tax, NI, corporation tax. So I wouldn't say they weren't paying in and in some places like cities you could argue a lot that are using their vehicles to earn with that they wouldn't bother owning one as public transport would be their personal go to instead.

 

[Martynt74]

Get uber app

Do 2 years in a big city... full employment rights.

Move to very remote area, turn on app... then go back inside and watch TV/work a different job.

Still earn min wage for doing nothing... cos you’re an employee now and uber has to pay you because you turned on the app.

(Obvs they probably don’t offer a service in the outer Hebrides in reality but basic incentives are there - unless they seek to regularly sack unproductive drivers you could get a min wage from an area with relatively fewer jobs and perhaps the way to game it is to double or triple up with rival apps - get paid 3*min wage by turning them on simultaneously in a low demand area)

Presumably it'd just be a zero hour contract and they're only recording time whilst "on jobs"?

 

[dowie]

I presume this changes Ubers business model significantly as well - as in the driver keeps all his earnings (minus whatever fee they pay to use the platform). I'd assume if you're now an employee of uber, then all your earnings now go directly to Uber and you'll be paid a wage based on number of hours worked.

I doubt it will be a completely flat rate, will likely need to have some variable component too to reward good drivers. Obvs the top drivers likely won’t get as well rewarded as they do currently. They perhaps will lose some independence - I guess having to sign in for a block of time instead of sporadically is one possibility and/or being directed to an area (if incentives via surge pricing aren’t so great). Could cause some drivers to go back to local minicab firms tbh..

 

[thenewoc]

Was having this discussion with a friend, if you're now entitled to minimum wage, you can absolutely bet uber will ensure you work the full hour for it. Currently a driver may take a 30 min fare out of town, and then hang around out of town for a nearby return fare - rather than driving all the way back into town to pick up a 5 min fare (all of which eats into earnings). The former way allowed drivers to pick and choose their fares based on location/destination/distance/duration of fare. Now many will be forced to pick up fares from wherever they're instructed to because they're now on the clock.

I presume this changes Ubers business model significantly as well - as in the driver keeps all his earnings (minus whatever fee they pay to use the platform). I'd assume if you're now an employee of uber, then all your earnings now go directly to Uber and you'll be paid a wage based on number of hours worked.

Was thinking the same, that this will probably hit the rural ones quite bad if forced to travel miles here, there and everywhere to keep picking up outlier fares.

 

[Pudney]

I do feel a lot of people are going a bit far with the implications of this ruling, it isn't a ruling against the gig economy, it's a ruling against Uber's interpretation of how to implement a gig economy.

 

[dowie]

Presumably it'd just be a zero hour contract and they're only recording time whilst "on jobs"?

Why would you presume that? If they only recorded time on jobs then they’d be earning over min wage and this wouldn’t even be an issue.

 

[Martynt74]

Why would you presume that? If they only recorded time on jobs then they’d be earning over min wage and this wouldn’t even be an issue.

Fair point, i thought part of the issue was that a fare could take an hour and the drivers fee would then be less than minimum wage thus falling foul of the law, as opposed to an entire "shift" being under minimum wage. I need to read the details rather than wading in with pretty much no knowledge.

Since minimum wage is less for people under 21/25, does this mean fares will be cheaper if you choose a teenager?

 

[Pudney]

Fair point, i thought part of the issue was that a fare could take an hour and the drivers fee would then be less than minimum wage thus falling foul of the law, as opposed to an entire "shift" being under minimum wage. I need to read the details rather than wading in with pretty much no knowledge.

Since minimum wage is less for people under 21/25, does this mean fares will be cheaper if you choose a teenager?

The issue was what constituted working time, it was held that it was from the moment a driver logs into the app until they log out, whether or not they are driving a fare.

 

[thenewoc]

Get uber app

Do 2 years in a big city... full employment rights.

Move to very remote area, turn on app... then go back inside and watch TV/work a different job.

Still earn min wage for doing nothing... cos you’re an employee now and uber has to pay you because you turned on the app.

(Obvs they probably don’t offer a service in the outer Hebrides in reality but basic incentives are there - unless they seek to regularly sack unproductive drivers you could get a min wage from an area with relatively fewer jobs and perhaps the way to game it is to double or triple up with rival apps - get paid 3*min wage by turning them on simultaneously in a low demand area)

I expect they'll introduce a moonlighting clause into their new contracts. Any geo locations that are over provisioned with drivers will likely see a lot laid off and those fares will get picked up possibly from further afield.

 

[SPG]

If your business model is built around treating your staff like dirt, tax loopholes/avoidance bordering on criminality then quite frankly they should be shut down. UBER has had it coming for years. I hope it's the first of many.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

To me, it feels like a good thing. Appreciate i am not an user driver who could see my income fall as a result of this, though!

Ultimately, everyone wants public services, but they have to be paid for somehow.

Much of the disruptor services leech off existing infrastructure without paying in. I don't see that as a viable long-term situation for any taxpayer.

Absolutely couldn’t agree more however I don’t feel this will be good for anyone. if Uber or untimely all Gigg employers have to abide by this the it makes it unsustainable, you can’t just have members of staff sitting on metered time time waiting for a job , costs would go to the moon and back and ultimately us the consumer will end up paying .

Knowing Uber they will either cease trading or work out some algorithms so drivers can’t log on when they have no work or worst still all the work they do will be rounded up to minimum wage .

 

[Kenai]

you can’t just have members of staff sitting on metered time time waiting for a job

From what i've read of the case, this was in effect part of the problem that some people saw - with no incentive for Uber to sensibly control supply vs demand, they created massive oversupply (as it was no loss to themselves to do so), leading to unnecessary levels of additional traffic/congestion where drivers were aimlessly driving around looking for or parking up waiting for work.

 

[montymint]

This is shamefully going to lead to mass redundencies

 

[Dolph]

This also reminds me of the kerfuffle around zero hours contracts and attempts to get them banned against the wishes of most of the people on them.

Lots of people who aren't affected not caring about the impact on those who are so they can feel morally superior.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Following a lengthy legal fight, the UK's highest court ruled against the taxi hailing app firm and concluded drivers should be classed as workers, not independent third-party contractors, which means they are entitled to basic employment protections, including minimum wage and holiday pay.

What about Amazon delivery drivers then? Other business might follow;

 

[dowie]

If your business model is built around treating your staff like dirt, tax loopholes/avoidance bordering on criminality then quite frankly they should be shut down. UBER has had it coming for years. I hope it's the first of many.

So why were so many drivers keen to move from say Addison Lee to uber then? Why, if it is so bad, don't most uber drivers seem to actually want this change?

How are they being treated like dirt under this model as opposed to say some new model where they're possibly required to do shifts of a set duration or required to go to certain areas where there is more demand instead of just relying on incentivizing them etc..?

Do you honestly think it would be better if they were to be paid at least minimum wage but in return, they then had various targets they must hit otherwise they get sacked? You remove the freedom of choice that plenty of them value and add in some additional stress but at least you've removed some variance from their pay right (even if that then causes a bunch to lose money).