UEFA Champions & Europa League Football Thread ** spoilers ** [19th - 21st October 2021]

People always think others will do better, you'd think they'd learn after Moyes walked in to a title winning squad and managed to make it midtable in less than a year. The only managers that people can credibly say would do a better job than OGS are Klopp, Pep and Tuchel. Even then they'd require a rebuild to fit their way of playing.
 
adam cool dude said:
He did win the championship with a Norwegian side that had never won the league before ever. Regardless of the quality of the league everything is relative.

I do not watch Norwich play but I thought Farke played decent football. It is just that his squad is Championship level and is suicide to play like that with poor players.
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I would say the Norwegian league success shouldn't really have much bearing, it's very obscure and doesn't demonstrate a great deal. Not that it should be dismissed, of course. Cardiff is much closer to reality and look how that went, couldn't have done much worse.
 
adam cool dude said:
He did win the championship with a Norwegian side that had never won the league before ever. Regardless of the quality of the league everything is relative.
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Would somebody that won a Sunday League therefore be qualified to manage Utd then?

Appointing Ole for a month while you looked for a new manager was fine. He'd lift the spirits around the club and put the focus back on the players to perform because the supporters weren't going to turn on him like they did Mourinho. He was never qualified to be the long term manager though. Coming on for 3 years after he's got the job and Utd still don't look like a team. The one thing some people give him credit for is building a good squad but even that I'd question. Utd have lots for good individuals but their squad lacks balance and looks confused to me. They're trying to play a 4-2-3-1 both to get the best out of Fernandes and shoehorn an extra forward into the side but the wide players don't work in that system nor do Utd have the midfield to play it. I saw some criticism of Rashford and Greenwood's defensive work recently but what do people expect? They're forwards that are being asked to play as midfielders. I think it was on monday night football that Carragher made the point re Ronaldo - Utd got rid of Lukaku because he wasn't a Utd forward that was going to press and work for the team but now they've signed Ronaldo. 12-18 months ago there were some signs that things were changing at Utd and there was some joined up thinking going on but everything looks like it's back to square one with short term reactional decisions being made.

I do think Ole is as bad a manager that there is in the League but there's a lot of other managers that Utd could appoint that would do no better. Not because they're completely clueless but because they're completely unsuited to managing Utd. David Moyes is/was a good manager, he just wasn't a manager that was suited to managing Utd or any side that expects to play on the front foot and challenge at the top of the table. As much as I hate him & Burnley, Dyche is a very good manager but he would be a terrible fit for Utd - all he's proven is that he can set up a side to be horrible to play against, really organised defensively and will grind out just enough points to keep a side in the League. There are however some managers at smaller sides that I think would be a huge upgrade on Ole. I really like Hasenhuttl and am amazed Spurs or Everton didn't look at him in the summer. Southampton are a much better side than their points totals and league positions suggest - they're almost always well set-up and regularly cause the biggest sides problems in matches but lack the individual quality to pick up the points their play deserves. Potter at Brighton has them playing really good football and until this season suffered from the same issues I mentioned about Southampton - they'd play sides off the park but lacked the players in the 2 penalty areas to get them the points they deserve but now that's changed and they're punching well above their weight. Frank at Brentford - another manager with little resources that's got a side playing progressive football that could be replicated at a bigger side with better players. There's a good few others too. Utd's problem, as it has been for the past 5-6 years, is that there's no real direction at the top of the club. They're not sticking with Ole because they think he's the right man but because they've tried hiring and firing managers and that didn't work so they'll just give this a go - as long as Utd make the CL the owners won't mind too much anyway.
 
The thing that is so baffling is that the owners are fantastically wealthy businessmen and by all accounts aren't meddling in the clubs affairs or treating it like fantasy manager. You would think they would be used to putting structures in place and maximising the output and results of any business. They have done it with the financial side of things with sponsors etc but they haven't even hinted at doing it on the football side which makes 0 sense.

You can't accuse them of not funding the club either. Yes they have taken a lot out of the club and yes the debt payments have been crazy but we are still matching and beating almost every side in the world on spending.

Putting a good structure in place like City and Liverpool have would actually save them money long term so I don't get it.
 
Do City and Liverpool have a good structure though? City spent wild and never gained any stability till Pep arrived. Same with Liverpool until Klopp arrived. They had been in the wilderness for 30 years. Just like we had been for 26 years.

One thing that SAF leaving showed is that the manager is the most important part of the club.

Klopp and Guardiola are like the Messi and Ronaldo of football managers at the moment. You have those two then a massive drop off after. City will spend their way when Pep eventually decides to leave but Liverpool will tank when Klopp decides to go.

Who is realistically managing now that is at Klopp's and Guardiola's level?
 
adam cool dude said:
Do City and Liverpool have a good structure though? City spent wild and never gained any stability till Pep arrived. Same with Liverpool until Klopp arrived. They had been in the wilderness for 30 years. Just like we had been for 26 years.
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City had been after Guardiola for years by all accounts and despite their churn with managers they clearly had a plan with how they wanted to play and they won plenty of trophies before Guardiola.

Liverpool came very close to the league before Klopp arrived and did it playing great football. They again have had a reasonably solid plan for quite a while now.

adam cool dude said:
Klopp and Guardiola are like the Messi and Ronaldo of football managers at the moment. You have those two then a massive drop off after. City will spend their way when Pep eventually decides to leave but Liverpool will tank when Klopp decides to go.
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When Klopp and Guardiola move on I would bet my bottom dollar that neither of them will leave and their respective clubs says "what now". Bayern change managers reasonably regularly but they always have a plan. They would have seen the writing on the wall with Ole 2.5 seasons ago and aggressively pursued their chosen manager and sacked whoever was in charge when they could get him.

adam cool dude said:
Who is realistically managing now that is at Klopp's and Guardiola's level?
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Thats a very hard question to answer. Bayern are looking crazy good this season under Nagelsmann and being English we seem to struggle to give managers credit in foreign leagues because they are "weaker" than the PL.

Its a bit of a moot point though. Its a bit like saying "I'm going to stick with my morris minor because I can't have a bugatti". At this point we have one of the best squads around and a manager that isn't even close to be good enough for any PL side with any ambition. The gap in quality between our manager/coaching staff and the other teams with our resources is quite frankly mindboggling.

Ole got the job because he is old United and then he has given most of the high profile and important jobs surrounding the team to other members of the old boys club. This weird idea that because you were good at something means you can teach it makes no sense and no other industry thinks like this. Quite often the best people in a given field are awful at teaching and either need to be taught how to teach or take a very long time and put a lot of effort into learning it. Its something my partner constantly laments in the NHS. People who are good at their jobs are thrust into leadership roles and they are crap at it and aren't taught how to do it.

Getting your coaching badges is like learning to drive. It shows you have a vague level of competency but nothing more. I could get my coaching badges and that wouldn't make me ready to coach a PL team full of internationals.
 
fez said:
Fletcher and Carrick mainly. Then he brought back Phelan who hasn't been at the top level in over a decade. Considering how awful Ole is at tactics and coaching you would think that he would want experienced heads around him who are still relevant.
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Carrick was already hired under Jose. Fletcher is Technical Director, he wouldn't have been appointed by Ole. Phelan is the only one he probably directly chose (and even then he was interim at the time so I imagine Woodward had a big say)
 
adam cool dude said:
Who is realistically managing now that is at Klopp's and Guardiola's level?
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I think Mancini is a good manager who turned the fortunes of an average Italian side in to champions with an impressive winning run but I doubt he's going anywhere soon as he's just penned a deal to 2026.
 
Shamikebab said:
Carrick was already hired under Jose. Fletcher is Technical Director, he wouldn't have been appointed by Ole. Phelan is the only one he probably directly chose (and even then he was interim at the time so I imagine Woodward had a big say)
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He the manager. He has a massive say in who his staff are and I would think he has a say in who the technical director was.

Either way the buck stops with Ole. If he can't coach the team or implement his ideas either himself or through his staff then one or both of them need to go.

When managers come in they almost always bring in a number of their own team that they have worked with for years.
 
He may have got a say but the decision for director level appointments would be made by Woodward, not Solskjaer. I can't find it right now but there was an organisational chart of staff at our club that was going round when Murtough and Fletcher were hired. This feels just like your usual bashing him for the sake of it, do you have any insight that those hires aren't performing in their roles?
 
I take it they out a weak side out with 6 points already in the bag?

edit looking at the line ups from recent matches he played one normal starter in defence and midfield.
 
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