Man of Honour
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An earlier exit would have at least seen the back of Southgate and his nonsense.
UEFA Euro 2024 Final Spain v England ** spoilers ** [Sunday 14th July 2024]
- Thread starter explicit4u
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An earlier exit would have at least seen the back of Southgate and his nonsense.
Soldato
This thing about England not attacking enough and not being more proactive, which by the way I agree with, hasn't that always been the case even with previous managers? Let's look at the positive here. England got to the final, AND scored a goal, AND only lost by one goal, they didn't get slaughtered, thanks to Pickford. I'm not saying Gareth shouldn't be replaced, but at the same time, it doesn't seem like he did a particularly bad job either.
Bar the first half against the Dutch and maybe 30 mins against Serbia we looked terrible in every game, we scored 7 goals 1 of those being a dubious penalty while conceding 6 and we only averaged a total of 6 shots a game with just 3 on target.
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Caporegime
I think Southgate was the right manager at the time he was appointed, post defeat to Iceland. But our squad has evolved since, new players have emerged, the PL also evolved with players playing in a style that is different to the way he plays his football with the influence of Pep and Klopp being the big ones.
Players such as Kane (Bayern), Foden (City), Bellingham (RM), Rice (Arsenal), etc, plays in top European teams that retains possession, pressing teams. Southgate doesn't seem to play in a way that these players do week in week out and even when we have momentum in the game, he would retreat into a low block. The perfect example were when England were losing 1-0 in several of the matches, that is when the real team turned up and attack and each time we managed to score when required, but as soon as we did, we always went back to how it was when the score is even.
So last night after Palmer equalised and before Spain scored, he was going to bring on Trippier and Gallagher. Showing us what he was thinking, holding onto the match and preparing for Extra Time.
I think the modern game has moved on from Southgate's way of playing, our players too.
And enough of trying to fit all the best players onto the pitch. He seems to think he HAS to play Bellingham and Foden together. He tried Foden on the left and that didn't work so he put Bellingham on the left....that doesn't work either. He looked uncomfortable on that side. It reminds me of when Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes together and Gerrard was on the right wing. This idea of "the best players can adapt" is BS, if that is true then why not put Trent in goal. Trying to put a player that plays all year round in a different position for their club and hoping their talent will overcome it seems silly.
I mean it is clear we have not played to our potential...why is that? To me, that is down to the coach, and the system he plays.
/armchair expert
Players such as Kane (Bayern), Foden (City), Bellingham (RM), Rice (Arsenal), etc, plays in top European teams that retains possession, pressing teams. Southgate doesn't seem to play in a way that these players do week in week out and even when we have momentum in the game, he would retreat into a low block. The perfect example were when England were losing 1-0 in several of the matches, that is when the real team turned up and attack and each time we managed to score when required, but as soon as we did, we always went back to how it was when the score is even.
So last night after Palmer equalised and before Spain scored, he was going to bring on Trippier and Gallagher. Showing us what he was thinking, holding onto the match and preparing for Extra Time.
I think the modern game has moved on from Southgate's way of playing, our players too.
And enough of trying to fit all the best players onto the pitch. He seems to think he HAS to play Bellingham and Foden together. He tried Foden on the left and that didn't work so he put Bellingham on the left....that doesn't work either. He looked uncomfortable on that side. It reminds me of when Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes together and Gerrard was on the right wing. This idea of "the best players can adapt" is BS, if that is true then why not put Trent in goal. Trying to put a player that plays all year round in a different position for their club and hoping their talent will overcome it seems silly.
I mean it is clear we have not played to our potential...why is that? To me, that is down to the coach, and the system he plays.
/armchair expert
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2 ways of looking at it
a) Southgate got us to 2 Euro finals in a row - great. Best manager evah.
b) The players got Southgate to 2 finals in a row but he lost us both.
I tend to go with b) largely because we have a great squad who played like they had only just met. Months to prepare and yet Southgate spent 5 games experimenting with set up and various players - and it showed. Pretty lucky to scrape though a number of the games - down to individual moments of brilliance - largely from players who spent most of the tournament sat on the bench.
I hope Gareth has had enough and is moving on and that the FA actually appoint a decent football manager first rather than someone who can say all the right things, tick the right boxes and bend the knee on cue.....
a) Southgate got us to 2 Euro finals in a row - great. Best manager evah.
b) The players got Southgate to 2 finals in a row but he lost us both.
I tend to go with b) largely because we have a great squad who played like they had only just met. Months to prepare and yet Southgate spent 5 games experimenting with set up and various players - and it showed. Pretty lucky to scrape though a number of the games - down to individual moments of brilliance - largely from players who spent most of the tournament sat on the bench.
I hope Gareth has had enough and is moving on and that the FA actually appoint a decent football manager first rather than someone who can say all the right things, tick the right boxes and bend the knee on cue.....
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Did we get any lucky draws prior to Southgate which we messed up? I suppose then you could see if Gareth made a difference or not.
Personally I am of the view any manager would have got us through to where we have based on the draws alone.
Saw it at last Euros, saw it this time.
Last World Cup is the best example, again beat easy teams and then against France got taken out (Kane cocking up the penalty exempted). Difference was we met France earlier.
If England had Spain's draw, they'd have got utterly destroyed.
Yes you play the teams in front of you but if you only beat bad teams it's all slightly immaterial.
Personally I am of the view any manager would have got us through to where we have based on the draws alone.
Saw it at last Euros, saw it this time.
Last World Cup is the best example, again beat easy teams and then against France got taken out (Kane cocking up the penalty exempted). Difference was we met France earlier.
If England had Spain's draw, they'd have got utterly destroyed.
Yes you play the teams in front of you but if you only beat bad teams it's all slightly immaterial.
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Caporegime
I know it's a case of "careful what you wish for", and if you ask any fans whether we want to see us play rubbish and win nothing or play great football and still win nothing...we probably pick the better football option, with the caveat of getting into 2 finals. It depends if you define getting into finals an achievements or winning trophies an achievement.
There is merit of how he plays his football, but I just can't help that it's like ETH last season. Back in January/Feb when United won like 5 games or something on paper had the best "form" but those that watched the games knew United were so lucky in most of them, including the 4-2 against Newport. I feel like it is like England in this Euros.
Granted, I think a lot of the teams also were not at their best. France was awful, Croatia didn't live up to expectations, Italy too didn't turn up and Portugal too was hampered with playing with 10 men. In a way, so did we....but at least Kane scored.
I don't think England could have wished for a better side of the draw and better chances, Spain was the only team that played great all the way through. I can't see us being that lucky for a long time with both the draw and the other big teams out of form. I think we would have struggled against Turkey or even Georgia.
There is merit of how he plays his football, but I just can't help that it's like ETH last season. Back in January/Feb when United won like 5 games or something on paper had the best "form" but those that watched the games knew United were so lucky in most of them, including the 4-2 against Newport. I feel like it is like England in this Euros.
Granted, I think a lot of the teams also were not at their best. France was awful, Croatia didn't live up to expectations, Italy too didn't turn up and Portugal too was hampered with playing with 10 men. In a way, so did we....but at least Kane scored.
I don't think England could have wished for a better side of the draw and better chances, Spain was the only team that played great all the way through. I can't see us being that lucky for a long time with both the draw and the other big teams out of form. I think we would have struggled against Turkey or even Georgia.
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Soldato
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Depends on how serious the FA are about having the national team actually win something.
Imo Klopp or Pep are the only managers who could achieve this monumental task.
The thought of Potter or Howe is just deplorable.
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We struggled against Slovakia save a very lucky penalty.
Before that, Gareth was going to repeat Iceland. Clearly the team is better than then but really how much better?
Soldato
A lot of the luck of the draw this time came down to winning the group some other fancied nations fluffing theirs. We also get better draws because we waltz through qualification and have done consistently well at major tournaments boosting our FIFA ranking. You can call it luck but some of it is down to hard work and success to often in the past we made qualification a drama and then scrapped out of a group in second place. Football fans are so irrational it seems Southgate is the worst manager in history and we have the best players in the world yet both are demonstrably not true. I agree Southgate should go, his time is up and someone else should try and build on the foundations he has left to see if we can get over the final hurdle. In terms of success though he will be a tough act to follow as the margins in international football are small and how bad would a manager have to be to do worse than Southgate if you believe the drama queens!
Soldato
Who are you going to play in goal to give Pep his foundation? All his teams have been built on ball playing keepers, defenders and a mid field anchor and all we have for that is Stones!
I would agree on Klopp he seems to fit the players we have better but can the FA tempt him?
It really isnt a monumental task. If Southgate wasn't so negative England could easily have won last night.
This is awful. To have a lower XG than Croatia who didnt even get out of their group is embarrassing.
I VERY highly doubt they could lure Klopp, tbh his own country needs him in charge just as much as we would want him in charge. There would be outrage in Germany if he decided to manage England rather than Germany.
Aside from that, Klopp can be quite outspoken and I dont believe for a moment that the FA want that sort of a personality in charge.
Soldato
Paddy Power on form again. 
Caporegime
The draws got us to two finals in a row and arguably a semi final in Russia.
Southgate's win percentage against top sides is less than 25%. It is abysmal.
Englands squad is 1.25b, Slovakia is 100m so around 1.1B better.
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What is the win rate under previous managers?
Don
You'd have to compare the squad FIFA player ratings as well though
Soldato
And that's the problem, when faced with better opposition we're often found out with our current tactics.
Gareth has been great for the team considering where he took them on.
Trouble is now we have a lot of talented players who play attacking, pressing, football week in, week out. That's not his way and I think it's time for a handshake, a big thanks for all you've done but we need new blood with a naturally attacking mindset.