Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Colonel_Klinck · 1 May 2022 at 18:02

Washout said:
Could be much higher security for the high level American diplomats who are in Kyiv this morning? Making sure nothing comes near whatever flight they took in or they have lots of notice on anything launched towards the capital while there.

I would think this is exactly why. The SS would insist on heightened security for the person 3rd in line to the presidency.

Colonel_Klinck · 1 May 2022 at 18:05

ubersonic said:
Just seen this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1520708941696708609

I'm not sure what's worse, that they would plan something like that or that they're already done so much evil I have little trouble believing it

Its not like they haven't shot down an airliner already. I wouldn't put anything past Putin and Russia at this point.

Mr Jack · 1 May 2022 at 18:12

ubersonic said:
I think from what I've been following of the conversation, it's one of those "one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist" type semantics arguments.

The general argument/debate seems to be why we call foreign fighters paid by Russia to fight "mercenaries" but foreign fighters paid by Ukraine to fight "volunteers".

No, we call groups like the Wagner group mercenaries because they're... mercenaries. They're paid soldiers fighting wherever for whoever for money. This isn't unclear.

The overwhelming majority of volunteers in Ukraine have signed up for the Ukrainian foreign legion and getting paid... ordinary amounts. There does seem to be some third party military contractors in the US who are also recruiting and paying big bucks these may well be mercenaries.

Minusorange · 1 May 2022 at 18:19

Colonel_Klinck said:
Its not like they haven't shot down an airliner already. I wouldn't put anything past Putin and Russia at this point.

The story doesn't make much sense to be honest, a sabotage recon group in Ukraine, to shoot an aircraft down in Russia :confused:

Dis86 · 1 May 2022 at 18:23

Minusorange said:
The story doesn't make much sense to be honest, a sabotage recon group in Ukraine, to shoot an aircraft down in Russia

Well yeah...so that it would have a missile traced back to Ukraine. Makes perfect sense.

ubersonic · 1 May 2022 at 18:34

Minusorange said:
The story doesn't make much sense to be honest, a sabotage recon group in Ukraine, to shoot an aircraft down in Russia

I think the idea would be, send some special ops guys into Ukraine, seize control of a SAM battery and target/destroy an aircraft flying in Russian airspace.

A brutally evil plan that from their POV would damage the sympathy for Ukraine that's developed globally, but the plan is ultimately stupid because it would certainly be seen as an accident just like last time.

Turn · 1 May 2022 at 18:36

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...-stopping-terror-bunkers-azovstal-2022-05-01/

Minusorange · 1 May 2022 at 18:38

Dis86 said:
Well yeah...so that it would have a missile traced back to Ukraine. Makes perfect sense.

1. If Ukraine air defence could reach into Russia or Belarus, they would be popping all those juicy military transports landing at airbases close to Ukraine
2. Maybe the wording is bad but Sabotage group doesn't sound right for the job (see 4)
3. Russia could just simply launch from Russia and blame Ukraine
4. It's a stupid plan, it involves either driving your own AA unit into enemy territory without being spotted, or trying to find one of the enemies, take out the crew and use it and if Russia could find enemy AA units so easily surely they'd all be destroyed by now without mentioning point 1
5. Don't even think about Manpads, they don't have near enough range

It's just likely propaganda ?

ubersonic · 1 May 2022 at 18:52

Minusorange said:
1. If Ukraine air defence could reach into Russia or Belarus, they would be popping all those juicy military transports landing at airbases close to Ukraine

They can, the entire reason they don't is because at that range they can't differentiate between say an Il-76 transport and a Tu-154 airliner.

Dis86 · 1 May 2022 at 19:00

Minusorange said:
1. If Ukraine air defence could reach into Russia or Belarus, they would be popping all those juicy military transports landing at airbases close to Ukraine
2. Maybe the wording is bad but Sabotage group doesn't sound right for the job (see 4)
3. Russia could just simply launch from Russia and blame Ukraine
4. It's a stupid plan, it involves either driving your own AA unit into enemy territory without being spotted, or trying to find one of the enemies, take out the crew and use it and if Russia could find enemy AA units so easily surely they'd all be destroyed by now without mentioning point 1
5. Don't even think about Manpads, they don't have near enough range

It's just likely propaganda ?

1, they can.
2, sounds meh
3, no, as per my point it would be traced. Easier for it to look like it came from Ukraine as if it was launched in Russia they're going to look guilty or incompetent.
4. That's exactly what teams behind enemy lines do.
5. Who even mentioned them?

andybird123 · 1 May 2022 at 19:06

Custor said:
British army £100 a day.
Ukrainian army $100 a day.
Volunteer who’s “not” a mercenary $2000 a day.

You’re right it’s not widely publicised. You’re obviously a bot for even asking.
All wars pretty much have the same thing if they are big enough and go on long enough. No shame. We’re too far into info wars for people to even admit it though.
Only the baddies would employ merc’s as they are morally wrong.
Insert whatever war you want.

Where is the source that the US guy mentioned specifically was on $2k a day?
I was under the impression he joined the Ukrainian foreign legion, and they are not getting that.

Maple Leaf · 1 May 2022 at 19:12

ubersonic said: 'The general argument/debate seems to be why we call foreign fighters paid by Russia to fight "mercenaries" but foreign fighters paid by Ukraine to fight "volunteers".'

Most of Ukraine's foreign volunteer fighters are not, legally speaking, mercenaries, but there are doubtless a minority who legally are (probably funded much more generously for their skills/experience by interested third parties).

ubersonic said: 'It's a very grey area as legally speaking both would be defined as mercenaries by the UN Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries. ... Ukraine on the other had did sign the convention and so by recruiting foreign fighters for the defence of Ukraine they are in breach, however as everyone apart from Russia is labelling them volunteers it seems like the world is simply turning a blind eye to the breach given what's happening in Ukraine.'

Well, that UN Convention requires that foreign legionnaires be paid no more than their regular counterpart servicemen in the same armed forces (which removes the financial motive for professional international mercenaries) so they are legally volunteers not mercenaries. According to the Economist that salary is 7,000 hryvnia a month (US$ 231 a month). That's a hopelessly low salary for a mercenary! Even a private in the British Army earns more than 7 times that salary. It is hardly financially worth going to fight in Ukraine and risking life and limb for just the standard remuneration package if you join Ukraine's Foreign Legion.

Mercenaries fight for much better pay than they can get in their own national armed forces. They are usually given bespoke contracts with better terms and conditions of employment than regular soldiers and may be in separate units with a disparate command and control structure. The Ukrainians have some foreign veteran ex-special forces people and snipers etc (who are obviously valuable for training, strategic military planning and mentoring their less experienced troops) so much more generous remuneration for them is sensible, but the average foreign volunteer is not going to get that sort of deal.

This controversy about Ukraine using mercenaries is just more hypocritical Kremlin propaganda, which is typically cynical of them considering that they use a variety of mercenaries in Ukraine from the Wagner Group, to murderous Chechen psychopaths to desperately poor Syrians.

Minusorange · 1 May 2022 at 19:25

ubersonic said:
They can, the entire reason they don't is because at that range they can't differentiate between say an Il-76 transport and a Tu-154 airliner.

Dis86 said:
1, they can.

Except there's no civilian aircraft flying anywhere in Russia or Belarus within the theroretical max range of the S-300's, it's all been declared notam because of the war hasn't it ? so the only targets in range are military which suggests that they're not actually within range

Freddie1980 · 1 May 2022 at 19:33

Colonel_Klinck said:
Its not like they haven't shot down an airliner already. I wouldn't put anything past Putin and Russia at this point.

In a botched false flag incident Russia tried to blow up one of it's own apartment blocks in a small city of Ryazan (about 50 miles south east of Moscow), a local resident noticed two men carrying large sacks from their car into the basement of the tower block and reported the suspicious activity to the police. The Police traced the cars license plate and found the car was registered in Moscow, the police bomb squad was called and discovered a bomb and subsequently defused it (latter on it was found out the explosives and triggers used was equipment used by Russian security forces not Chechen rebels). There was even a telephone call that was recorded by the local phone service provider where they captured a conversation on how to leave the area without suspicion that telephone was traced which led to the police going to make arrests, when the arrest was being executed the suspects produced FSB identification cards! When all this came out in the press Putin basically said this was all a 'training exercise'.

So the fact things are blowing up and burning across Russia may not be 100% down to Ukrainian or paramilitary forces activity but rather Russia's own ineptitude and stupidity.

Colonel_Klinck · 1 May 2022 at 19:40

Freddie1980 said:
In a botched false flag incident Russia tried to blow up one of it's own apartment blocks in a small city of Ryazan (about 50 miles south east of Moscow), a local resident noticed two men carrying large sacks from their car into the basement of the tower block and reported the suspicious activity to the police. The Police traced the cars license plate and found the car was registered in Moscow, the police bomb squad was called and discovered a bomb and subsequently defused it (latter on it was found out the explosives and triggers used was equipment used by Russian security forces not Chechen rebels). There was even a telephone call that was recorded by the local phone service provider where they captured a conversation on how to leave the area without suspicion that telephone was traced which led to the police going to make arrests, when the arrest was being executed the suspects produced FSB identification cards! When all this came out in the press Putin basically said this was all a 'training exercise'.

So the fact things are blowing up and burning across Russia may not be 100% down to Ukrainian or paramilitary forces activity but rather Russia's own ineptitude and stupidity.

I remember hearing about that before. Anyone who would blow up an apartment block full of his own citizens has to have serious mental health issues. Sending troops to war would keep most people up at night, murdering your own citizens for political gain, that is some dark ****.

Jokester · 1 May 2022 at 19:50

Colonel_Klinck said:
I remember hearing about that before. Anyone who would blow up an apartment block full of his own citizens has to have serious mental health issues. Sending troops to war would keep most people up at night, murdering your own citizens for political gain, that is some dark ****.

For the motherland!

Dis86 · 1 May 2022 at 19:50

Minusorange said:
Except there's no civilian aircraft flying anywhere in Russia or Belarus within the theroretical max range of the S-300's, it's all been declared notam because of the war hasn't it ? so the only targets in range are military which suggests that they're not actually within range

Possibility of shooting something from another neighbouring country? There's plenty flying by other borders well within range.

Freddie1980 · 1 May 2022 at 19:58

Colonel_Klinck said:
I remember hearing about that before. Anyone who would blow up an apartment block full of his own citizens has to have serious mental health issues. Sending troops to war would keep most people up at night, murdering your own citizens for political gain, that is some dark ****.

Stalin, Putin, Hitler, Mao......to authoritarian, sociopathic, dictators like these people are just a means to an end sadly.

Minusorange · 1 May 2022 at 20:42

https://twitter.com/x/status/1520753705691328512

Turn · 1 May 2022 at 20:49

[May 01 2022, 20:34:59 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Russia Has Never Interrupted Efforts Towards an Accord That Will Avoid a Nuclear War — Italian TV Interview
[May 01 2022, 20:35:59 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Western Media Mislead People Over Russian Aims in War
[May 01 2022, 20:38:46 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Russia Developed Ultrasonic Weapons to Counter-Attack Against a Possible Attack From West
[May 01 2022, 20:42:31 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Ukrainian Attacks on Donbas Are Clearly Aimed at Terrorising the Civilian Population
[May 01 2022, 20:45:44 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Zelenskiy Constantly Changes His Position, the Ukrainians Have Sabotaged Negotiations
[May 01 2022, 20:47:56 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: The Fact Zelenskiy Is Jewish Does Not Negate the Nazi Elements in Ukraine, Says Believes Hitler Also Had Jewish Blood
[May 01 2022, 20:49:48 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Wagner Group Is Private, Has Nothing to Do With Russian State
[May 01 2022, 20:51:11 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: There Are Many Foreign Mercenaries on the Western Side in Ukraine, Without Providing Evidence
[May 01 2022, 20:51:56 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: There Are Many Western Officers Fighting in Ukraine, Without Providing Evidence
[May 01 2022, 20:57:20 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Italy Is in the Front Line in Initiatives Against Russia, We Were Surprised but Now We’re Used To It
[May 01 2022, 20:57:54 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Some Declarations of Italian Politicians Have Gone Beyond Normal Diplomatic Norms
[May 01 2022, 21:01:08 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: US Has Fomented Ukriainian Hostility to Russia, As Part of Long-Standing “Anti-Russian” Strategy
[May 01 2022, 21:08:44 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Zelenskiy Can Promote Peace if He Stops Giving “Criminal” Orders to His Nazi Troops
[May 01 2022, 21:09:27 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: We Only Want to Guarantee the Security of Pro-Russian Ukrainians in East
[May 01 2022, 21:10:04 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: West Has “Stolen” Russian Money Through Sanctions
[May 01 2022, 21:11:29 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Under Gas for Roubles Scheme Nothing Changes for the Buyers of Russian Gas
[May 01 2022, 21:14:35 BST]: Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov: Russian Soldiers Will Not Be Conditioned By May 9 Commemoration
— RTRS