Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[StriderX]

The way this new German government is acting towards Russia it might as well be Russian Republic at this point.

I know war and military force should be avoided but equally if you don't stand up to bully they will continue to abuse you.

Whilst we could castigate the Germans for being too reliant on Russian gas, there's really not much point in doing so as we can only deal with what is and not what should have been, though I will say that a more forceful approach towards divestment in Russian gas imports is a necessity going forward and Germany needs to be pushed to invest in Nuclear again.

The problem the German government has is two-fold, firstly and obviously it is politically untenable in the middle of winter to engage in sabre-rattling when Russia can pretty much grind Germany to a halt as well as kill off some amount of poor/elderly people in the process. Secondly, Putin has spent some time rewriting their history and decades of rhetoric about German warmongering (especially regarding Ukraine) is going to serve Putin's misinformation warfare domestically as well as in the Eastern Bloc countries.

Arguably the second point should really not be an issue, but Germany (well it's establishment anyway) has spent a great many decades being very emo about the early 20th century (rightfully so). I think time has run out for them on that though and the German public seem far more willing to expand defence spending now than in the past, so hopefully things start changing on that front. Still doesn't resolve the energy/heating issue though.

Another point I think is that the German establishment is desperate not to just be the US's lapdog and all these interdependencies with Russia is a way of entrenching them into a situation that the US cannot easily push them out of. I suppose if the world was destined to move from US hegemony to a multi-polar order along with Europe losing trust in the US, perhaps there was some logic to it even if it's difficult to justify in the context of Russian aggression.

 

[Hagar]

Not quite all of us

Sadly so many folks have a very binary "we're goodies & they're baddies" mentality towards life which is is so ingrained that they simply can't imagine someone else's POV being valid because "they're the baddies" and therefore the baddies POV (irrespective of reality) is completely ignored. Then they tend to pile-in on folks who try to see all sides because they fail to understand that simply seeing the baddies POV isn't the same as agreeing with it.

Perhaps we should just ask the former eastern bloc countries what they want rather than designating them as in a Russian sphere of influence due to their geography. People suffered very badly under Soviet rule and those countries are most vehement against rejoining or becoming a buffer against NATO. Putin is no democrat and therefore he would not think of asking that question.

 

[ianh]

Perhaps we should just ask the former eastern bloc countries what they want rather than designating them as in a Russian sphere of influence due to their geography. People suffered very badly under Soviet rule and those countries are most vehement against rejoining or becoming a buffer against NATO. Putin is no democrat and therefore he would not think of asking that question.

Again -

simply seeing the baddies POV isn't the same as agreeing with it.

So understanding the Russians POV is not the same as agreeing with it, and it you don't understand it you can't combat it effectively. We know exactly how we, and the former Eastern Bloc countries, feel about Russia but unless we also understand how Russia sees the same situation, how would we know how best to act.

At the end of the day Russia wants to feel "safe" and it will continue to act in a way which it thinks is their best way to achieve that goal irrespective of what the "West" want it to do and, as hugely unfair as it may be to people, if it comes down to Russia taking parts of the Ukraine so that it feels "safe" then I think the Western world will accept that vs starting WW3 over it, as the lives of 43-ish Million aren't worth risking the lives of Billions via a nuclear WW3 - thats reality, it's ugly and it's unfair but it's still the reality.

It's crazy but as WW2 was fought in Pre-Nuke times it was a much simpler problem to combat in comparison.

 

[Hagar]

I don't think that it isa question of 'Russia' feeling safe, nobody In history has invaded Russia with a view to conquering it successfully . It is a largely paranoid cold war leader ex KGB, who sees a natural world order along the lines oF the former soviet satellite states forming a barrier around Russia. His current demands are based on the Ukraine. Next will be the baltic states and then Poland and Hungary all with varying degrees of ethnic Russian peoples. To foment issues and come to their aid.

 

[arknor]

What if Putins just bored and wants to troll the west and make them waste money and time.

didn't he basically take crimea for the natural gas.

is there much of anything else left in Ukraine? Crimea seemed to have been nearly all the natural gas they had.

 

[ianh]

nobody In history has invaded Russia with a view to conquering it successfully.

At the cost of millions of dead Russians each time, so there's a genuine reason that they fear being invaded yet again.

I don't think that it isa question of 'Russia' feeling safe

Yet what you wrote below is exactly what would make them feel safe -

It is a largely paranoid cold war leader ex KGB, who sees a natural world order along the lines of the former soviet satellite states forming a barrier around Russia. His current demands are based on the Ukraine. Next will be the baltic states and then Poland and Hungary all with varying degrees of ethnic Russian peoples.

Doing this would give Russia the buffer zone they think they need from NATO, who they absolutely see as an enemy right now. You say it's Putin wanting a return of "a natural world order" whereas he probably see's that same highlighted part as simply "something to make Russia feel safe" and both statements make sense depending on which side you are on.

 

[alchal]

Again -



So understanding the Russians POV is not the same as agreeing with it, and it you don't understand it you can't combat it effectively. We know exactly how we, and the former Eastern Bloc countries, feel about Russia but unless we also understand how Russia sees the same situation, how would we know how best to act.

At the end of the day Russia wants to feel "safe" and it will continue to act in a way which it thinks is their best way to achieve that goal irrespective of what the "West" want it to do and, as hugely unfair as it may be to people, if it comes down to Russia taking parts of the Ukraine so that it feels "safe" then I think the Western world will accept that vs starting WW3 over it, as the lives of 43-ish Million aren't worth risking the lives of Billions via a nuclear WW3 - thats reality, it's ugly and it's unfair but it's still the reality.

It's crazy but as WW2 was fought in Pre-Nuke times it was a much simpler problem to combat in comparison.

Go on, tell me how is Russia not safe they have enough nukes to level all of the EU and US many times over.

Every EU nation is cutting thier military and the US is focused on China.

It's got bugger all to do with feeling safe and more to do with Putin and his rose tinted USSR specs as he has on numerous occasions mentioned.

And lol at the fear of invasion, maybe you should read up on how they helped build the Nazi war machine up and as I recall a few days after Germany invaded Poland they also invaded Poland and inflicted atrocities.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Funny thing is by doing this it’s caused everyone to rush to Ukraine’s aid, mainly with anti tank weaponary. If Russia does go in Ukraine can give them a world of pain. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to it, although the sheer level of hardware Russia is sending suggests they will.

 

[Malevolence]

 

[RoboCod]

Again -



So understanding the Russians POV is not the same as agreeing with it, and it you don't understand it you can't combat it effectively. We know exactly how we, and the former Eastern Bloc countries, feel about Russia but unless we also understand how Russia sees the same situation, how would we know how best to act.

At the end of the day Russia wants to feel "safe" and it will continue to act in a way which it thinks is their best way to achieve that goal irrespective of what the "West" want it to do and, as hugely unfair as it may be to people, if it comes down to Russia taking parts of the Ukraine so that it feels "safe" then I think the Western world will accept that vs starting WW3 over it, as the lives of 43-ish Million aren't worth risking the lives of Billions via a nuclear WW3 - thats reality, it's ugly and it's unfair but it's still the reality.

It's crazy but as WW2 was fought in Pre-Nuke times it was a much simpler problem to combat in comparison.

Yes, let's just sit idly by as Putin justifies annexation of neighbouring countries with "self defence". When do you say enough is enough? You realise the new border will mean they'll then need to annex further, in order to "protect" themselves even more?

Daft logic really.

 

[4K8KW10]

I honestly believe Putin is playing us all and everyone is leading onto it. All he is doing is making NATO/US scream war with Ukraine next week and showcasing whole world what bunch of liars we are, most notably his own population. Look at the angle, Russians are saying they are moving forces within their borders and we are screaming saying put them all back into barracks or else. Yet when Russians say they don't like NATO forces moving around their borders - we tell them to stuff it as its none of their business.

So he keeps doing this over and over again to drive a point of double standards mostly with his own population to further turn them against U.S/NATO. Its working like a charm quite frankly and its something you all are missing. Putin will most likely continue this rhetoric in Cuba or Venezuela, he'll most likely put a base there before invading Ukraine. Then we'll squeel and say how this is absolutely unacceptable to world safety and start throwing hissy fit. With which he'll run to his own electorate and showcase another western double standard.

After doing this for a while he'll even begin to turn Western public against our own government policies about Russia as long as he does not overcook it and start a real war.

U.S will lose their minds if a a Russian/Chinese base in Cuba or Venezuela appears. Yet U.S bases around Russia or China are totally fine and acceptable. Watch this space especially China as well, I believe this will do way more damage to NATO/West credibility than a war in Ukraine. I believe this is what Putin is actually going for. Furthermore, it would consolidate both countries population around their dictators and against west.

I told you already what the problem is - the problem is the millions Russian citizens that live in Donetsk and Lugansk and the east of Ukraine.
Do you imagine what it means.
It is similar as if Scotland someday becomes a member of the Russian-Chinese military Union, while London thinks that the whole of the Scotland should belong to the UK.
The same in the Ukraine - the East of it wants independence, while Kiev wants to be enemies with Russia.

Also, the new Russian doctrine is that it wants NATO to retreat to the 1997 status of member-countries.
Which means that every country that joined later, should hold a referendum and leave NATO..

 

[dowie]

I see ze Germans have carried on deciding to be a bunch of ****s again, this time blocking much-needed shipment of artillery for Ukraine:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1554085/Germany-NATO-weapons-Ukraine-putin-ont

The anti-tank weapons the UK supplied aren't going to be much use stopping any invasion, they're short-range and of much much more use in any subsequent insurgency where SF/irregular forces could ambush Russian armour.

For a conventional war Ukraine needs MANPAD missiles and artillery and ASAP. The US has hopefully supplied the former, Germany has really been an unhelpful European ally re: the latter.

I told you already what the problem is - the problem is the millions Russian citizens that live in Donetsk and Lugansk and the
east of Ukraine.

Partly helped by Russia deliberately issuing passports to them. In other news loads of Brits live in Spain, it isn't particularly relevant.

Also, the new Russian doctrine is that it wants NATO to retreat to the 1997 status of member-countries.
Which means that every country that joined later, should hold a referendum and leave NATO..

Why should it mean that? That's just nonsense, these countries willingly chose to join NATO, funny how once they're free of the Soviet union/Warsaw Pact they exercise their free choice to not be aligned with Russia.

If Russia doesn't like that then perhaps they should examine why that is exactly.

 

[ianh]

Go on, tell me how is Russia not safe they have enough nukes to level all of the EU and US many times over.

And lol at the fear of invasion, maybe you should read up on how they helped build the Nazi war machine up and as I recall a few days after Germany invaded Poland they also invaded Poland and inflicted atrocities.

Yes, let's just sit idly by as Putin justifies annexation of neighbouring countries with "self defence". When do you say enough is enough? You realise the new border will mean they'll then need to annex further, in order to "protect" themselves even more?

Daft logic really.

Like I said -

Then they tend to pile-in on folks who try to see all sides because they fail to understand that simply seeing the baddies POV isn't the same as agreeing with it.

Sadly it's much easier to call someone daft, tell someone to learn history or make a strawman from things that have never been said than it is trying to look at something from a different viewpoint, especially if it's one you disagree with, so I understand the replies.

 

[dowie]

Go on, tell me how is Russia not safe they have enough nukes to level all of the EU and US many times over.

Every EU nation is cutting thier military and the US is focused on China.

It's got bugger all to do with feeling safe and more to do with Putin and his rose tinted USSR specs as he has on numerous occasions mentioned.

And lol at the fear of invasion, maybe you should read up on how they helped build the Nazi war machine up and as I recall a few days after Germany invaded Poland they also invaded Poland and inflicted atrocities.

Well, it's sort of about feeling safe, but not really because of any risk of invasion - the Russian leadership might try and play it that way but the thing they really fear is popular uprisings/colour revolutions etc..

Whether it's been the Czars, the communists and now dictators/oligarchs Russia has been ruled by authoritarian regimes and the risk of uprisings is something they're paranoid about. Other former Soviet countries have aligned with the West, embraced freedom & democracy and that scares the likes of Putin.

He certainly doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO, become aligned with the EU, possibly Belarus to follow, there are strong links with those countries and an obvious risk that elements of the Russian population will also want similar things. It's in their interests to try and keep a pretend threat of NATO, when in reality it's a defensive organisation with no plans to invade Russia and which plenty of former NATO adversaries have willingly chosen to join.

 

[ubersonic]

The way this new German government is acting towards Russia it might as well be Russian Republic at this point.

In fairness Germany refusing to help us militarily fortify Ukraine should potentially be seen as a red flag, they have an uncanny knack for spotting looming military disasters a mile away and refusing to help us with them (I.E Iraq, Libya).

I don't think that it isa question of 'Russia' feeling safe, nobody In history has invaded Russia with a view to conquering it successfully .

Except, you know France and Germany.

This is the whole crux of the problem from the Russian POV, they don't trust western Europe not to invade them due to western Europe's history of invading them and getting millions of them killed. Granted it hasn't happened since WW2, but that is mainly due to the cold war. And of course after WW2 we created an anti USSR club called NATO which succeeded in collapsing the USSR and is still advancing towards Russia's borders.

I'm not saying their fears are founded in reality, but their fears are certainly rational given the evidence they have seen. And if we don't at least try to understand their fears not only can we not engage/cooperate with them but we end up with situations like this where western governments refusal to even attempt to understand the Russian side has almost gotten to the point of us forcing them to invade Ukraine as a direct result of us trying to deter them from doing it and going the absolute wrong way about it >.>

 

[Custor]

NATO ‘defensive’ organisation has had a habit of bombing countries into submission in past decades as an instrument of US foreign policy.
Not sure Libya nor Serbia attacked nato???
Russian got ****** off with Western countries stretching the UN mandates to do whatever they wanted.
What’s good for the goose…

eyeroles for freedom fries or whatever bs is posted towards Germany now.

 

[RoboCod]

Like I said -



Sadly it's much easier to call someone daft, tell someone to learn history or make a strawman from things that have never been said than it is trying to look at something from a different viewpoint, especially if it's one you disagree with, so I understand the replies.

I'm not telling you we don't understand their POV, I'm telling you it's daft logic to just watch Russia annex Eastern Europe.

 

[gazref]

What if Putins just bored and wants to troll the west and make them waste money and time.

didn't he basically take crimea for the natural gas.

is there much of anything else left in Ukraine? Crimea seemed to have been nearly all the natural gas they had.

First: What if he's trolling
Second: remember his last illegal invasion.
Third: why would he even want to invade.

Quite the range of cognitive dissonance.

Putin is a bad dude and is on the verge of invading a sovereign country. Don't over think it.

 

[ubersonic]

The problem is that in Donetsk and Lugansk there are up to million ethnic Russians.

This is one of the major problems/misunderstanding caused by Russian propaganda on this issue. There's actually no such thing as an ethnic Russian, Russian is a nationality not an ethnicity, when they talk about "ethnic Russians" they're actually referring to ethnic Slavs.

Russia's population is 94% ethnic Slavs, Ukraine's is ~84% ethnic Slavs, Belarus population is almost 100% Slavs. This is why Russia's claims of being worried about the "ethnic Russians" in x region is always just propaganda to try and legitimatise any attempt at interfering in the politics or whatever of x region. If we were to accept that Russia should be allowed to interfere in every country with high Slaving populations we're talking about most of eastern Europe.

 

[RoboCod]

NATO ‘defensive’ organisation has had a habit of bombing countries into submission in past decades as an instrument of US foreign policy.
Not sure Libya nor Serbia attacked nato???
Russian got ****** off with Western countries stretching the UN mandates to do whatever they wanted.
What’s good for the goose…

eyeroles for freedom fries or whatever bs is posted towards Germany now.

Assume you live in a NATO country though, right?