Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar
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Ok, I mean facts obviously aren't important here so I'll bow out.
Soldato
Facts are, security guarantees have been made to Ukraine.
Google “the fall of the USSR” and “the nuclear disarmament of Ukraine” and then come back and apologise everyone.
Soldato
You are saying Ukraine is "de facto" NATO member... which is precisely the type of BS Russia likes to peddle as they attempt to make this a Russia vs NATO war because losing to war to Ukraine they started is to much for their little Z brains to cope with.
Do you think NATO member's would stand aside if any other non member European state were attacked in a similar way?
Ireland, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria?
Of course they wouldn’t.
So why single out Ukraine as a "de facto" member?
The reason countries join NATO is two reasons. They want extra guarantees of support to act as a deterrent. They also want to contribute to the alliance because they value its strength.
Ukraine has neither benefited from guarantees of support or contributed to the alliance. They are not members in any way.
NATO members are involved in Ukraine because they want to preserve a system where attacking another country for territorial gain is seen as unambiguously unacceptable.
For reasons I don't really understand, you seem to want to send out an all together more muddy message.
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Caporegime
Pedantically speaking, @Roar87 is correct here: there is no formal treaty obligation on the UK (or US, etc.) to defend Ukraine. The "guarantees" given were more guidelines than rules; they provide a solid justification for the UK getting involved (if we needed another one) but they do not, in the strictest sense, oblige our response.
Just link it
We have a winner.
Some reports of the Ukrainians attacking a pair of destroyers with some success. Not much in the way of conformation.
So you think that Russia's invasion is illegal and immoral but you don't think anyone should support Ukraine, thus allowing Russia's illegal and immoral invasion to achieve its aims, is that accurate?
I agree with what Dr Cornell West says in this interview
Soldato
I agree with what Dr Cornell West says in this interview
LOL
So when he starts with the NATO non expansion line, which is a lie, we are supposed to be believe hes a balanced actor.
Why is he bouncing like that? Mental breakdown or Alzheimers?
I've just watched that and he doesn't have an answer. He throws around a lot of blame for why we got to this point - which I'm not at all sure I agree with, but that's another issue - but what he basically doesn't want to say seems to be "yes, Russia should win".
I agree with what Dr Cornell West says in this interview
Caporegime
It's the usual pile of apologist falsehoods, I couldn't be bothered to listen past the drivel claiming that there was a promise not to expand NATO to the East.
Caporegime
This has been the same for every poster who has suggested the West is fuelling the war and should stop. They don't suggest an alternative strategy, just that the current one is wrong.
Russia is still conducting offensive operations against Ukraine, this seems to be easily overlooked.
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Soldato
Thats not strictly true.
Some of them, like Melon Musk, say Ukraine should capitulate.
Thats their strategy.
The cowards strategy. We have seen others in here with the same weak bladder.
Soldato
Regardless of the legalities, the West is getting to reduce the fighting capacity of our principal adversary at a bargain price.
It's really fortunate that we have all these declassified documents showing that we did in fact promise the Russians not to expand Eastwards when they handed over East Germany.
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive
Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents
nsarchive.gwu.edu
It seems that we didn't actually adhere to what we promised them, and even when they didn't kick up too much of a fuss about all the Baltic states, the US insisted on interfering in Ukraine - which they explicitly made clear was a red line, so here we are.
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Caporegime
We've raked over this dribble about a promise of no Eastward expansion enough times in this thread already.
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Yeah, and considering you're convinced it's a lie you didn't do a very good of looking at the evidence.
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