Under a dealer warranty, should injectors count as part of the engine?

[Noughtboy]

Short story, bought a s/h BMW120i to use in ULEZ zone.

Had a FBMWSH and was clean and good condition with a three month engine/gearbox warranty.

The car within a month had a couple of inches of water in the rear footwell. The fault was (eventually) traced to a blown seal in the windscreen but took a while during which there was loads of water everytime it rained and of course condensation all over the car. Forward to whilst this was being diagnosed, the EML started to come on along with the radio and parking sensors occasionally not working.

The dealer was notified and plugged in the OBD which notified of a miss in cylinder 2. He swopped the coil with cylinder 3. The fault reappeared the following day on cylinder 2 implying it was either a spark plug or the fuel injector. His claim is this not covered under the engine warranty (which has no documentation) as it is not part of the block and was rather an ancillary so not covered under the "engine" part. Any mechanically minded people who would agree with this?

To me, a starter motor would not be the engine. Or a turbo. But the fuel injector/s?

Am I wrong?

 

[Barry Smalley]

You need the warranty paperwork. Some warranty's cover everything whilst some only cover certain components. Who underwrites the warranty?

 

[tom_e]

You need the warranty paperwork. Some warranty's cover everything whilst some only cover certain components. Who underwrites the warranty?

This, what anyone thinks is irrelevant. It's what is written down but you may be about to learn how useless these warranties are unfortunately.

Saying that as I'm assuming you've owned it for less than 6 months then if you can be bothered with the argument you should still be able to push for a fix https://www.whatcar.com/news/your-legal-rights-if-something-goes-wrong-with-your-car/n3307

 

[Demon]

Hang on:

Your legal rights | AA

Buying a used car is a great way of cutting costs as most new cars lose value in the first year. But you need to know your legal rights.

www.theaa.com

Faults, repairs and refunds​

Under the new act, if a fault renders the product not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described, then the buyer is entitled to reject it within the first 30 days.

Between 30 days and 6 months​

If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months you’re entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

• It’s assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise.
• Unless you’ve agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you’re entitled to a refund.
• In the event of a refund following a failed attempt at repair during the first six months the seller may make a 'reasonable' adjustment to the amount refunded to take account of the use that you’ve had of the vehicle.

After 6 months​

The burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time of delivery if you want to pursue a claim for repair or replacement.

Now, it's not as straight forward as it seems, but Sale of Goods act might be able to help, especially if under 3 months old (hence all dealers trying to offer 3 month warranties minimum)..

So I would say that if he's saying the warranty doesn't apply, then going down the sale of goods act route:

Satisfactory quality​

Satisfactory quality means that the vehicle should be of a standard a reasonable person would expect, taking into account things like its age, value, history, mileage, make and description.

• An old car with high mileage wouldn’t be expected to be as good as a younger car with low mileage
• Each should still be roadworthy, reliable, and in a condition consistent with its age/price.
• If a vehicle turns out not to be of satisfactory quality, the remedy will depend on the time that has passed and the nature of the fault – it's best to seek legal advice or visit http://www.adviceguide.org.uk.

 

[Noughtboy]

You need the warranty paperwork. Some warranty's cover everything whilst some only cover certain components. Who underwrites the warranty?

It was a dealer stamped "3 month Warranty covering Engine, Gearbox, Mechanical Breakdown Failure only. £300 claim limit. Warranty does not cover cambelts and tensioners".

That's it. No other paperwork and no other company name mentioned leading me to believe that it is with the dealer himself.

 

[Haggisman]

It was a dealer stamped "3 month Warranty covering Engine, Gearbox, Mechanical Breakdown Failure only. £300 claim limit. Warranty does not cover cambelts and tensioners".

That's it. No other paperwork and no other company name mentioned leading me to believe that it is with the dealer himself.

Literally worthless. That's less than your consumer rights give you anyway (unless the dealer can prove the fault wasn't there at the time of purchase).

 

[Bint Box]

Literally worthless. That's less than your consumer rights give you anyway (unless the dealer can prove the fault wasn't there at the time of purchase).

+1 agreed,

£300 claim limit and only three months covered, dealer has made the warranty up simply to say car offered with warranty.

If you read and agreed to that warranty before purchasing the car you only have yourself to blame for being in the position you are in now.
Fortunately, you seem to have some type of protection under consumer rights but I think you may need to push hard to get anywhere with the dealer
Name and shame the dealer.

 

[Noughtboy]

+1 agreed,

£300 claim limit and only three months covered, dealer has made the warranty up simply to say car offered with warranty.

If you read and agreed to that warranty before purchasing the car you only have yourself to blame for being in the position you are in now.
Fortunately, you seem to have some type of protection under consumer rights but I think you may need to push hard to get anywhere with the dealer
Name and shame the dealer.

In truth, he hasn't been too bad to deal with to date. Just he is "very busy at the moment"and things take a week to resolve and then back when it wasn't that etc. We are running into the 6 months deadline (although the faults were highlighted within 9 weeks and are ongoing.)

I was letting him sort it except he just came up with the injectors not being part of the engine BS and that I would have to pay for it. I told him I would not be paying to fix a pre existing fault especially as it was reported within the time of the "warranty". This is when he made the statement about injectors not being part of the engine so therefore not covered and that is what have have taken umbrage to.

 

[jpaul]

but Sale of Goods act might be able to help, especially if under 3 months old (hence all dealers trying to offer 3 month warranties minimum)..

like he said -

you've had it a month - so like the other recent thread on vw flywheel that went awol after very short ownership period - dealer needs to show injectors weren't faulty at sale -
when were earliest mis-fire events logged in obd system ? (or, did he wipe that evidence ) how many miles have you done. (e: & age/mileage of car - what fuel used ?)
can't but think dealer should be sorting this .. and he probably knows this, if he is misdirecting you from the Sales of goods act towards this being an invalid warranty claim.

 

[Drangueos]

Technically fuel injector is part of the fuel system, not part of the engine BUT I wanna see the engine work without it

 

[Demon]

In truth, he hasn't been too bad to deal with to date. Just he is "very busy at the moment"and things take a week to resolve and then back when it wasn't that etc. We are running into the 6 months deadline (although the faults were highlighted within 9 weeks and are ongoing.)

I was letting him sort it except he just came up with the injectors not being part of the engine BS and that I would have to pay for it. I told him I would not be paying to fix a pre existing fault especially as it was reported within the time of the "warranty". This is when he made the statement about injectors not being part of the engine so therefore not covered and that is what have have taken umbrage to.

Ignoring the sale of good act for a moment..

I think it’s fairly easy to say that engine is a vague term and unless defined specifically with the warranty, then as a consumer taking the broadest sense of that word would trump him making up a narrower much more restrictive term..

After all, injectors are bolted directly to the engine, if not fitted, the engine can’t work etc.. this is why warranty booklets often describe the coverage more explicitly to save any confusion, and if it’s confusing, in law it tends to then favour what is more advantageous to the consumer.

Anyway, SoGA probably is the best avenue if he’s being a git… and under 30 days when the fault occurred? possibly grounds to return..

Garages are scum.. I’ve been looking for cars lately and noticed a lot want to include a 3 month third party warranty, one that only requires its last service to be to the manufacturers service schedule, and has very limited cover… I suspect it’s to help them with SoGA issues and gives a perfect avenue to argue their way out if things that many might swallow.. the one offered with a £300 claim limit is ridiculous, what mechanical fault could be fixed for £300 these days? A water pump maybe, but he’d argue that wasn’t part of the ‘engine’.

Go to CAB and start rejecting it, the leaky windscreen seal seems enough to me..

 

[Noughtboy]

like he said -

you've had it a month - so like the other recent thread on vw flywheel that went awol after very short ownership period - dealer needs to show injectors weren't faulty at sale -
when were earliest mis-fire events logged in obd system ? (or, did he wipe that evidence ) how many miles have you done. (e: & age/mileage of car - what fuel used ?)
can't but think dealer should be sorting this .. and he probably knows this, if he is misdirecting you from the Sales of goods act towards this being an invalid warranty claim.

Car is a 2010 BMW 120i Coupe with 81000 miles with the FBMWSH. We have done maybe 1500m since the purchase is mid September 2023 - mostly due to it being either filled with water, misfiring or under investigation or repair for above. He was advised by text late November about the misfire and electrical gremlins (radio failing to switch on and rear parking sensors also not working and then working and then not etc).

The leaking windscreen was only apparent after we returned from holiday in late October although had been reported within the 30 days but only traced to windscreen mid November.

Fuel was standard 95 RON. We have jumped from coil pack to spark plugs to possibly injectors but now the miss has spread to cylinder 2 AND 4. Reckon it may be related to an oil pressure sensor meaning the VANOS system is not working or fuel pressure/NO2 sensor. I think at this point, if it one of those, he needs to come to the party or return the cash less a charge for our use (probably a third done driving up and done to his dealership or another repair place!)

Will use the SOGA as the reason if he starts to get lippy because as mentioned he has one chance to repair it and then it is deemed his problem and can be returned.

 

[Removed User 345456]

£300 wouldn't even cover one OEM genuine Siemens injector new, let alone 4! No warranty is going to fit used or non OEM parts, or replace all 4 on a car worth 2-3 grand when working fine that's 14 years old. Regardless of this clown making up a fake warranty. So you're screwed either way.
You bought it sold as seen basically, anything else is hearsay.

 

[tom_e]

You bought it sold as seen basically, anything else is hearsay.

A court would disagree.

 

[Noughtboy]

£300 wouldn't even cover one OEM genuine Siemens injector new, let alone 4! No warranty is going to fit used or non OEM parts, or replace all 4 on a car worth 2-3 grand when working fine that's 14 years old. Regardless of this clown making up a fake warranty. So you're screwed either way.
You bought it sold as seen basically, anything else is hearsay.

You may be correct but I would disagree (possibly because I am generally disagreeable )

The problem was raised within the 6 months (and we still have another month to go in any case) so have time to argue and attempt restitution. Will find out later from mechanic what he currently believes to be the issue.

 

[jpaul]

yes sounds a dilemma really need a reliable analysis from a bmw expert, to decide if problem is limited to injectors to be able to put an ultimatum to him of (him) fixing those, or, if cause is unclear,
proposing a partial refund to cut your losses.

 

[OldKitMan]

In truth, he hasn't been too bad to deal with to date. Just he is "very busy at the moment"and things take a week to resolve and then back when it wasn't that etc. We are running into the 6 months deadline (although the faults were highlighted within 9 weeks and are ongoing.)

I was letting him sort it except he just came up with the injectors not being part of the engine BS and that I would have to pay for it. I told him I would not be paying to fix a pre existing fault especially as it was reported within the time of the "warranty". This is when he made the statement about injectors not being part of the engine so therefore not covered and that is what have have taken umbrage to.

Forget their made up no use warranty. You're going to need to go down the consumer rights road here.

This is a reasonable summary: https://www.whatcar.com/news/your-legal-rights-if-something-goes-wrong-with-your-car/n3307

Wouldn't hang about though - get the wheels in motion.

Also, how did you pay for the vehicle - any of it on a CC?

 

[Haggisman]

Car is a 2010 BMW 120i Coupe with 81000 miles with the FBMWSH. We have done maybe 1500m since the purchase is mid September 2023 - mostly due to it being either filled with water, misfiring or under investigation or repair for above. He was advised by text late November about the misfire and electrical gremlins (radio failing to switch on and rear parking sensors also not working and then working and then not etc).

The leaking windscreen was only apparent after we returned from holiday in late October although had been reported within the 30 days but only traced to windscreen mid November.

Fuel was standard 95 RON. We have jumped from coil pack to spark plugs to possibly injectors but now the miss has spread to cylinder 2 AND 4. Reckon it may be related to an oil pressure sensor meaning the VANOS system is not working or fuel pressure/NO2 sensor. I think at this point, if it one of those, he needs to come to the party or return the cash less a charge for our use (probably a third done driving up and done to his dealership or another repair place!)

Will use the SOGA as the reason if he starts to get lippy because as mentioned he has one chance to repair it and then it is deemed his problem and can be returned.

If I were you I'd try to get them to take it back - it sounds like a money pit to be honest.

The whole "very busy at the moment" line is a) not your problem, and b) probably nonsense anyway; he knows he's on the hook for it, and is just trying to fob you off and draw things out past the 6 month point. Playing "Mr Nice" and pretending to be reasonable is a classic stalling tactic.

It sucks that it has to get to this point, but you need to push and push. Call at least once every day until you have a resolution, make yourself an absolute nuisance, make it more trouble than it's worth to fob you off, so he gives in just to get rid of you.

 

[Removed User 345456]

A court would disagree.

You may be correct but I would disagree (possibly because I am generally disagreeable )

The problem was raised within the 6 months (and we still have another month to go in any case) so have time to argue and attempt restitution. Will find out later from mechanic what he currently believes to be the issue.

They'll just give you your money back and won't fix it, as I say it's uneconomical to repair at this point versus the value of a 14 year old car that isn't anything special nor rare such as an M5 etc, even then they'd still write it off as uneconimical to repair due to ///M engines/parts being disgusting money (///M tax as we like to call it).

Then once you've left, they'll order the new injectors/any parts it needs for **** all at trade price, fix it and put it back on the forecourt and sell it again. Joys of a mainstealer/dealership.

So you should at least end up with your money back.

 

[Haggisman]

They'll just give you your money back and won't fix it, as I say it's uneconomical to repair at this point versus the value of a 14 year old car that isn't anything special nor rare such as an M5 etc, even then they'd still write it off as uneconimical to repair due to ///M engines/parts being disgusting money (///M tax as we like to call it).

Then once you've left, they'll order the new injectors/any parts it needs for **** all at trade price, fix it and put it back on the forecourt and sell it again. Joys of a mainstealer/dealership.

Why would they go through all the effort of refunding and then trying to sell it again, if they were already in the position of being able to "order the new injectors/any parts it needs for **** all at trade price"

The more likely scenario is:

"Then once you've left, they'll delete all the fault codes, do a quick & dirty bodge fix and put it back on the forecourt and sell it again, hoping the next poor sap to buy it is easier to fob off. Joys of a mainstealer/dealership."