uninterruptible power supply help

[Phil2008]

So yeah guys I am very impressed with this ups so far and if Im not using the pc but turn on with monitor on standby, it will last 1hr 40min, with the old ups only lasting 20min.

The only problem are the dam fans, If I change them I void the warranty so the customer support said, if not I will either get use to them or they will drive me mad for 2yrs until the warranty runs out. But the customer support person did say they are 12v fans, so Im thinking some good old "Noctua fans" will do the job if they are 80mm and I think they are.

Also the supplier where I got the ups from, is going to see if he can get me a replacement front grill, or if not he's going to arrange it to be sent back for a replacement. So thats good of him

 

[EsaT]

But then I noticed it saying 188mins with nothing connected to the ups, so the ups can only calculate up to 188mins Im guessing?

UPS itself needs power to keep running.
And like I said higher output rated UPSes have beefier circuitry consuming more than smaller ones, just like in PSUs.
There are UPSes with additional external battery module which have best operating times.
Because they allow increasing battery capacity without increasing power consumption of UPS itself.

The only problem are the dam fans, If I change them I void the warranty so the customer support said, if not I will either get use to them or they will drive me mad for 2yrs until the warranty runs out. But the customer support person did say they are 12v fans, so Im thinking some good old "Noctua fans" will do the job if they are 80mm and I think they are.

Problem in changing fans is making sure cooling stays good enough.
Also there can be fan speed monitoring with minimum fan speed or error is triggered.

 

[Phil2008]

UPS itself needs power to keep running.
And like I said higher output rated UPSes have beefier circuitry consuming more than smaller ones, just like in PSUs.
There are UPSes with additional external battery module which have best operating times.
Because they allow increasing battery capacity without increasing power consumption of UPS itself.

Yeah I was thinking that it probably needs some power for its self, Im guessing its the inverter thats the powerhog mainly?

I could have bought the same ups with the external battery connector for about £20 more, but the battery pack box cost as much as the ups, for some crazy reason, as its a empty box. But I did think I could hook the batteries up without the box. But I guess its a tad too late now though, but I might see if he will let me have the more expensive one, if I have to return this ups for a replacement.

Problem in changing fans is making sure cooling stays good enough.
Also there can be fan speed monitoring with minimum fan speed or error is triggered.

I am hoping there will be some info about the airflow of the fans online, then I will try and match the new fan's with the closest airflow as poss while keeping things quiet. Or thats the idea. Someone did change the fans in a powerwalker ups and it kept shuting off, but he did solve the problem.

I hope its not cramped inside, but the customer support guy said the batteries and the electronics are separate from each other, a divide down the middle.. So fingers crossed, it wont be too bad inside.

My mate is comming to give me a hand with it next week, as I havent very steady hands todo it myself.

 

[EsaT]

I am hoping there will be some info about the airflow of the fans online, then I will try and match the new fan's with the closest airflow as poss while keeping things quiet. Or thats the idea. Someone did change the fans in a powerwalker ups and it kept shuting off, but he did solve the problem.

The thing is that for same size airflow of all fans is pretty much same at same rpm.
Some marketing departments just lie more than others.

Noctua is one those with more marketing hype than reality.
It's S-serie fans are sure very quiet for speed.
But that's because blade design can't really push air and even small impedance (airflow resistance) causes total collapse of airflow.
Basically they move air only to downwind.

Of course more finer design of fan affects its sound signature.
Like if fan blade leading edge is aligned with those supports of hub/motor that's going to cause noise by presenting frequent big obstacles to airflow separating from blades:
Just blow air from your mouth and move finger or say pen fast side to side just in front of lips and you'll get noise spikes.

Though with 80mm completely out of business in PCs there isn't such choise of different fans in tem as in 120mm fans.
Also you should try to look for long operating life in fans.


Myself was able to lower noise by big amount because of switching from tiny 60mm turbine to 80mm fan mounted with adapter externally while also cutting away restrictive stamped mesh.
First time when doing it in MGE Pulsar Evolution just didn't know about fan speed minimum limit.
So with battery charged and in normal line operation fan voltage got lowered to 9V it started giving beep every 10s or so.
I would guess limit was set to 1000rpm.
Though before that I had already tested that without fan connected UPS didn't even start.

Anyway no matter battery back voltage UPS likely has 12V fan because that's the most common voltage for them.

 

[Phil2008]

I think I can hear more motor noise then wind noise and if thats the case, I might be able todo somthing about it. Plus its made in china even though its a german ups, so hopefully the fans are cheap and nasty.

But yeah there's a good amount of air thats being sucked out of the ups and thats on low speed, So replacing of the fans might not quiet things down with the same airflow, but its worth a go. No doubt I will have trouble with the UPS not liking the replacement fans. So the key is dont get real low rpm fans then?

I really hope the fans are not 80mm in size, but I think they are though

 

[EsaT]

Crappy bearing can definitely cause noise.
For 24/7 use longevity those are likely ball bearing fans, but that also needs high quality to minimize bearing noise.
Difference between bad and good bearing can be quite huge also in friction.

Also how smoothly fan rotates affects to vibration.
With Noctua heatsinks I've got bundled NF-P12 and NF-F12 fans and both of them have some god awful angular axle/bearing:
When turning fan by finger instead of smooth rotating there are major bumps, which likely cause constant varying torque to motor and deceleration/acceleration during rotation.
So no wonder those fans vibrate quite a lot and when connected to hard surface vibration makes also that material vibrate.
(fan is quieter when kept in hand but running it on table gives lot more noise)
Though vibration is likely less problem with 80mm fans and other smaller&lighter fans than 120mm and bigger.

IIRC that UPS had picture showing finger guard made from metal wire instead of stamped mesh in front of fan, right?
So in that area noise can't be improved.
That should actually show markings of fan allowing looking for data of it giving some kind starting point.

 

[Phil2008]

You mean the fan grill guards? Yeah Im thinking the finger guards might be causing noise aswel, because its sucking a lot of air out, much more then my pc is doing. They look like 80mm fans to me, I would look but I would have to turn everything off as the cables are not long enough to pull the ups out.

Im guessing that half where the fan are is the electronics side and the other half contains the 4 batteries.

 

[EsaT]

Seems to have same drawing in here.
https://www.powerwalker.com/?page=product&item=10122042&lang=en
For stamped meshes those are extremely good and don't cause that much additional turbulence/noise over wire made finger guard.
It's just that likely high speed fan always makes noise.

Though that center part of stamping prevents seeing markings of fan for checking its data.

 

[Phil2008]

They are good are they, I wouldn't honestly know. I think I could get away with lower rpm fans if the ups doesn't have a paddy, as the casing is constantly cold even after its been running on battery mode for a hr and you can feel the air being sucked into the ups though all the air vents. Plus atm I am using eco mode so the inverter doesn't get used unless the voltage shifts 5% or powerloss.

 

[Phil2008]

Ummm, Can you buy a splitter or a switch? I was thinking something like that would be nice to have if I do buy a generator, Then I could have the ups plugged in to both mains power and generator at the same time and then flick a switch between the 2...

Ive seen a 2600kw generator with AVR and electric key start for £250., I think that would power my ups without the ups cutting off the generators supply and running off battery too often... Does a online ups totally disconnects from the mains and stops charging the batteries if dodgy mains power is being sent to it? I think older line interactive ups's does this, thats why these don't work too well if connected to a generator, because they are always on battery mode. The newer line interactive ups's has a "generator mode".

 

[Phil2008]

Well I have been inside the ups today, and its very tidy inside, a bit like a pc. The 4 batteries are on one side of the case at the front ontop of each other, then totally empty the rest of the way back. You could get another 8 batteries in there easy id say.

The other half of the case is full of the electrics, with a plastic sheet that covers them.

Anyway I removed the fans easy enough, and it was a nice surprise to see that the fan plugs wern't glued in.. Here's the fans but there all in chinese, and I couldnt get it translated, so I ordered some noctua 1800rpm case fans. https://translate.google.co.uk/tran....taobao.com/item/562796603918.htm&prev=search Im sure the fans that are in it are much higher rpm, but Im hopeing these noctua's are fast enough and keep things cool.. fingers crossed https://www.overclockers.co.uk/noctua-nf-r8-redux-1800rpm-80mm-quiet-case-fan-fg-040-nc.html. Im not having high hopes for the fans, but I might be presently surprised?

These are the batteries that are installed....... https://www.hardwarexpress.co.uk/csb-ups12460-battery-ups12460-7f2-12v-460w-4858-p.asp

Here are some inside pics of the ups.....

 

[EsaT]

That plastic sheet is safety insulation sheet likely for moments of battery swap if cover is U-shaped.
Though there's that PCB exposed on battery side along with outputs...

What capacitors are they using?
Looks likely grab bag stuff.
Those four big caps at top are there to smooth input from battery to inverter.
(nothing else in UPSes which could need such amount of capacitance)

 

[Phil2008]

It still looks a hell lot easier to replace then the belkin ups batteries. The main prob is avoiding touching the panel with the terminals on the batteries as the terminal are against the panel,, but then again once the batteries are connected the terminals will be covered. The board id say is sitting about 1cms off the panel on standoffs, so the batt terminals shouldnt be able to touch the board. I might cover that panel with plastic sheeting when I replace the batteries in a few yrs time

The four big capacitors say "CE 1707" if that makes any sense to you. The fans came today and there the correct size, now Im just need my mate to put them in for me and keep fingers and toes crossed that they are fast enough so the ups doesn't complain.

 

[AmateurExpert]

That plastic sheet is safety insulation sheet likely for moments of battery swap if cover is U-shaped.

That seems unlikely to me. It looks like a cheap way of forming a duct so the airflow via the two rear fans is channelled from the front intake over the heatsinks.

I might cover that panel with plastic sheeting when I replace the batteries in a few yrs time

Either this or shielding the battery terminals themselves. A bit of electrical tape will do if you don't mind the adhesive making a sticky mess over time.

 

[Phil2008]

That seems unlikely to me. It looks like a cheap way of forming a duct so the airflow via the two rear fans is channelled from the front intake over the heatsinks.

Yeah I was thinking that, hot air could be sucked out more effectively, being in a more confined space with the plastic being there. and yeah the plastic shields it from the metal case cover aswel, why use a metal case cover is beyond me though. Its not nearly as scary as my old ups to remove and put the casing back on, but its still a bit scary with the casing cover being metal

Either this or shielding the battery terminals themselves. A bit of electrical tape will do if you don't mind the adhesive making a sticky mess over time.

Or get some of that wide electrical tape and stick it directly onto the panel were the batteries terminals sit. I'll be amazed if the batteries are not insulated somehow with the terminals being against the panel. I cannot really tell without unscrewing bits, as they are firmly held in place as you can see.........

 

[EsaT]

That seems unlikely to me. It looks like a cheap way of forming a duct so the airflow via the two rear fans is channelled from the front intake over the heatsinks.

For that having solid side panel would be even cheaper than adding additional part and some extra work.

Some of those heatsinks might well be connected to some voltage so if case is U-shaped opening it for battery swap exposes also those.
And if there isn't much space between side and heatsinks that plastic sheet could be also because of that.

 

[Phil2008]

That plastic only covers that 1 side and its pegged into those holes on the bottom heatsink, 1 of the pegs has pinged somewhere that I will have to try and find.. Luckily I only have to take off the plastic for changing the fans and not the battery replacement as I can see the plastic cover getting damage if unpeged too meny times.

 

[Phil2008]

Hey is that yellow square thing the inverter on the electronics side of the ups, because the belkin ups has something similar to that, but its twice the size?

 

[EsaT]

Hey is that yellow square thing the inverter on the electronics side of the ups, because the belkin ups has something similar to that, but its twice the size?

That squarish yellow thing above lower big heatsink is likely transformer, though also coils can use such design.
Would need to see circuit diagram to say for sure but suspect that big toroidal coil to be one of the primary components of inverter.
Small transformers can be used simply for electrical isolation in signal paths or for changing signal voltage.

Those fully square yellow things like near fan position are plastic film capacitors. There seems to be at least one grey such near mains input wiring.
That yellow coin battery like thing behind ground wire in picture is likely MOV aka metal oxide varistor, whose job is to (or at least try) protect input from surges.
Smaller bluish "coins" are ceramic capacitors.
Those toroidal metal things in mains input wiring are for inductance to filter RFI.
Whitish squarish things in there are likely relays.

Whitish square "towers" are power resistors.
And then those different cylindrical towers with metal at top are all various size electrolytic capacitors.

The four big capacitors say "CE 1707" if that makes any sense to you.

That's likely somekind manufacturing date code, possibly year (17) and week (7) with CE telling nothing usefull.
And there's plenty of more text in them.
Like at least 85 or 105 telling (max) temperature rating and max voltage and capacitance.

Besides likely manufacturer name or logo and some two or three letters telling serie.
Nichicon, Panasonic (formerly Matsushita) and Rubycon write their name, while Nippon Chemi-con has logo.
Cheap makers have lot more variations in their name writing.
Panasonic uses two letters for serie, Chemicon, Nichicon and Rubycon use mostly three letters.


Often markings are next to that minus electrode sign/marking stripe telling polarity...
Electrolytic capacitor connected wrong way bursts/fails/goes kaboom, because current dissolves aluminum oxide layer pretty much shorting capacitor

 

[Phil2008]

I didnt mean for you to tell me what everything was inside, but thank you.. I am not great with technical stuff but I get by ok I think. You say its surge protected, it isnt surge protected so the spec says and the guy from the manufacture recommended me to plug the ups into a surge protector

Well my mate put the new fans in for me and guess what, it had a paddy, beeping and flashing away with "fan fail". But now for some reason its working fine now, and I have played about with it, on and off battery mode and stuff to get it to fail again, but it appears to be working A-OK now. So I dont know if 1 of the fans was a bit stiff at the begining, causing the fans not rotating at the same speed and that was making the alarm to go off.. quite odd.

But yeh is not pulling as much air through the case now but I can still feel air being sucked in through the front and sides, so its still moving air through it. I have tested it on battery mode for 20mins or so and the case stayed nice and cool, Plus now my pc is louder then the ups now, Id say the ups is about 50% quieter now then before. Plus the dark screen cover (light dims) came today and now I should be able to sleep ok without having to cover up the screen.

Edit: Im lying in bed now, and I can still hear the fans but its not like having 5 pc's running in my room, its more like having half a pc running