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uninterruptible power supply help

Discussion in 'Power Supplies' started by Phil2008, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. hornetstinger

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 4,905

    Actually the two batteries in my APC Smart 1500 were £75. That's by getting off the shelf Yuasa batteries, of the same size and specifications as the original APC battery pack. Takes about 10 minutes to stick the two together, fit in the fuse and wire, and hey presto just saved yourself fair bit of money.
     
  2. EsaT

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 6, 2008

    Posts: 3,898

    Location: Finland

    Of course there's price variation depending on number/type of batteries of that particular UPS, but when not paying for UPS brand tapes/wrapping and sticker on top about half of that is enough.
    And for same battery capacity battery replacing cost would be same no matter of output rating of UPS.

    Anyway more tightly sized UPS is going to need battery replacing more often because less battery aging/wear is enough to cause collapse of backup time.
     
  3. ANDARIAL

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 5,357

    Location: Woolyback Country

    Would be nice to have one that takes a car battery
    Tried this when the batteries died in one of my ups years ago :eek:
    Did not like it!!! Big spark and pop/bang
    Too many amps i imagine.The ups still worked fine after replacing with right battery after though
     
  4. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

    yeah I was wondering about connecting 2 12v car batteries up to a ups, because the voltage is correct.

    a family member might be able to help me out and if thats the case, this one looks quite decent for just under the £250 mark, but im still looking for anything better, as I wont be ordering for a few days I think.

    PowerWalker VI 2000 PSW/UK Pure Sine Wave IEC UPS 1400W
    • Capacity 2000VA / 1400W
    • Input Voltage: 220/230/240VAC
    • Voltage Range: 162-290VAC
    • Output Voltage: 220/230/240VAC
      • Voltage Regulation - (Battery mode) ± 10%
      • Frequency 50 or 60Hz
      • Freq Regulation Battery mode: ± 1 Hz
      • Waveform: Pure Sine Wave
      • Transfer Time Typical: 2-6 ms
    • Battery
      • Type: 12V / 10Ah
      • Quantity: 2
      • Recharge Time: 6h to 90%
    The only thing I can see that could be better, is the voltage regulation could be down to 5% then the ups will kick in sooner when the voltage spikes.. The transfer time is lower then my ups, so thats a bonus ..........Im guessing if I had 50w-100w load, that would last a few hrs on battery mode?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  5. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 55,880

    Weird the amperage capability of the battery shouldn't matter I think unless it was outputting into a virtual short. Possibly some difference in the charging controller/mechanism though - I don't think that is the case though as most UPS use similar types of battery to a car battery and usually the same voltage.
     
  6. AmateurExpert

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 7, 2017

    Posts: 358

    Location: location location

    I have swapped batteries in these (Belkin Universal UPS) and it's not that tricky to get the cover on and off - didn't have any problems with shorts. You're only meant to connect/disconnect the batteries with the cover slid back a couple of inches, then there's no risk. I expect it's one of the reasons why user servicing is discouraged.

    The bigger issue is that these are an outdated design with a high idle power consumption - it's not a bad idea to get a new unit.

    It's dark not because it's scorched, it's dark because it's a shiny area from solder on the traces, and it's reflecting something dark in the background.

    Correct, though Armageus was still broadly correct in that larger UPSs will tend to come with more batteries than smaller ones. With regards to adding additional batteries, only some (e.g. APC Back-UPS PRO) support this.

    Given the importance to runtime, longevity and maintenance costs, it's annoying that battery capacity isn't one of the typical product description metrics.

    Yes, 12V 7Ah SLAs seem to weigh in at around 2.16kg, while 9Ah ones (same physical size) are 2.6kg - the original BB Battery 7.5Ah ones I removed from the Belkin were also 2.6kg though.

    A little spark when connecting a fully charged battery back into a UPS is nothing to worry about, but if you're not sure what's normal or safe then please don't take the risk.
     
  7. EsaT

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 6, 2008

    Posts: 3,898

    Location: Finland

    With very little data simply wouldn't have much of trust into its quality.
    Who knows if it even would pass any safety testing.

    Besides general quality design and components of inverter are also likely cheaper with not the best efficiency.
    And inverter beefy enough to meet output capability needs some more power to keep components themselves operating than lower rated UPS.
    (both things just like in PSUs)
    While batteries retain higher effective capacity at lower discharge rates that will eventually decrease backup time growth compared to load decrease.

    So with also less battery capacity than in my UPS (240VAh vs 324VAh) I would estimate that backup time to be around hour maybe in mid of that load range...


    Spark and pop is what reconnecting battery did in previous MGE and does in current Eaton.
    It's just charging draw of capacitors which smooth power/voltage to inverter.
    (and possibly also rough filtering of power for control electronics)
     
  8. ANDARIAL

    Soldato

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 5,357

    Location: Woolyback Country

    This was a few years ago and it was a BIG spark and pop:eek::D
    Nearly crapped myself.Do not think i am going to try it again:o
     
  9. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

    Hi guys, well Im still looking, last night I was looking at the online ups and I found a good one for £360 from the powerwalker ups's range, but I think thats a little too much. I have had a very interesting conversation with powerwalker live chat thing.. I kind of knew this, but they say even if the ups has surge protection, use a surge protector behind the UPS, as the mov/varistor, or whatever it is wears out over time, making the surge protection useless in a ups.

    Like people say you shouldnt use a surge protector with a ups, but I think they mean dont plug one into the ups's sockets, even some ups manuals say dont use surge protectors.

    The person that I was chatting with from powerwalker, said.......
    "indeed they have surge protection and the varistor, I think all, although I am not sure. The key point is that this varistor is not intended to last as long as the surge protector. Or after due time, the replacement of varistor would cause a problem. Therefore it is better to keep them separated and "use up" the surge protection in the UPS only as last resort."

    I started using a surge protector with my ups about 4yrs ago, as I thought the protection in the ups would be knackered,, but I will use a surge protector in the new ups from the word go, now that I know. Plus its protecting the surge protector in the ups from dying too.

    Interesting hey?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  10. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

  11. EsaT

    Mobster

    Joined: Jun 6, 2008

    Posts: 3,898

    Location: Finland

    On-line UPSes run battery charger/rectifier and inverter all the time so they're going to waste power for every watt used by load on top of what their own electronics consumes.
    That higher heat production also means more need for cooling and likely noise from that.
    All bad for home use.
    Line-interactive is better for home use with no need to run inverter during normal operation and no constantly load related extra power consumption.
    Computer PSUs simply aren't that sensitive if input waveform isn't perfect all the time.

    And surge protector should really be better and clearly higher rated so that it can actually better protect UPS from bigger surges.


    If you wanted some UK power sockets CyberPower's PFC Sinewave line has two UK outlets
    https://www.cyberpower.com/uk/en/product/series/Backup UPS Systems/PFC Sinewave
     
  12. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

    Well, I have ordered that online ups as my family has very kindly given me the money and I thought I wont have another chance to get a decent ups, so I went for the "PowerWalker VFI 2000Va/1800watt TG Online UPS".

    I hope my current ups is a very inefficient being 10yrs old and the new ups will use the same or less mains power, but the specs of the new ups does say "90% full load Efficiency" and I dont think I will be using more then 200watts most of the time.

    Hopefully I will have quite a few hrs of backup time as thats the main reason for such a high wattage ups and hopefully it will be as good and reliable as my good old belkin ups and last 10 yrs or longer.... It better had I have been researching online hrs and hrs these last few days, Im all upped out now..hehe:D

    Edit: The ups has a "eco mode" and I think when using this, it acts as a "line-interactive", but I will see what this mode actually does when I get it. If it can be run as a line-interactive , I might only use the online mode during storms and the eco mode the rest of the time. But we will see.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  13. David Bisset

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 31, 2012

    Posts: 2,204

    Location: Edinburgh

    Wattage doesn't equate with long battery life :( it tells you how quickly it can deliver power if required.

    Edit: Seems this was covered already in the thread :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  14. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

    A 1800watt ups will last much longer then a 670watt ups if its using the same load... People get the wattage thats required to run there stuff and then wonder why the ups only last 5mins

    Like with this ups I have got at the moment, its a 670watt UPS, but I only need a 350watts maximum. But getting a over the top UPS will increase runtime, as the batteries are not being drained so quickly.

    Apparently online ups's can run with generators too, as the generator only recharges the batteries. But still I think you need half decent generator so the voltage doesn't spike too much. I might invest in a generator sometime to run along side my ups for the long power cuts we sometimes get.

    I was on about the "eco mode" a few days ago that some online ups have and yes they can be run as a line interactive ups, to save power. The switch over from mains to battery mode is 50% faster on the new ups of 4millisecounds.. So I might use this mode if it uses a lot of power, then the normal mode during storms or if the mains powers dodgy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  15. bremen1874

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 20, 2008

    Posts: 8,334

    Usually, but not always.

    Battery capacity will decide the run-time not the rated wattage.
     
  16. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

    I will be a tad gutted if I dont get over 1hr runtime with a 150watt load with the 1800watt ups because at the moment I get 20mins with a 150watt load with a 670watt ups:mad:

    Thats why I ordered a ups one with a such a high wattage, as I want the runtime to be much longer. The new ups has 4 12volts 9ah batteries and Im pretty sure Im using 2 12volts 9ah batteries with my old ups.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  17. bremen1874

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 20, 2008

    Posts: 8,334

    If you've doubled the battery capacity you can expect double the run-time for the same load (roughly).
     
  18. hornetstinger

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 6, 2016

    Posts: 4,905

    It should give runtime. Typically high wattage ups have higher capacity batteries. I think my 1500va lasted about 45 mind with one pc on.
     
  19. Phil2008

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004

    Posts: 7,446

    With the amont of money its cost (a little under £400) it better have a good runtime...Also our power is going off in a few weeks, so it will be connected it to our 200watt fishtank heater... I have no idea how long it will run on that, as the heater will be on and off due to the thermostat.
     
  20. bremen1874

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 20, 2008

    Posts: 8,334

    As mentioned the run-time against load should be in the specifications.

    I just had a look. A continuous 200W load will give you about an hour of run-time.