Universal basic income to be trialled

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

So would anyone working end up in exactly the same place? Receive UBI, but pay more tax on your actual salary = same net income?

If so then what's the point, all it will do is incentivise lower paid jobs to drop out the workforce.

If it does make people better off, perhaps on a diminishing scale as your earnings go up, then it will cause inflation especially on everyday goods and housing.

Its all up in the air, but the reality is higher taxes would be charge to some in order to fund the whole thing.

The only UBI trials I have seen focus on the mental and similar angles and not how the system would work in its entirity.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

You remember that show on BBC back in the 80's tomorrows world?

How they thought technology would drastically improve our lives?

Look at us today.

I do however, respect your optimism.

Reminds me of these.

How to send an 'E mail' | Database | Retro Computers | Early E mail | 1980s Technology | 1984

How to send an e mail 1980's style. Electronic message writing down the phone line. First shown on Thames TV's computer programme 'Database' in 198407/06/198...

www.youtube.com

1989 thought houses would look like this by 2020 | Tomorrow's World | Past Predictions | BBC Archive

What are the biggest changes to our homes going to be by the year 2020? Will the house of the future be environmentally friendly? What new materials might th...

www.youtube.com

 

[200sols]

Amazed so many people don't understand it.....

You don't lose the UBI if you work.

Say you get your £1600 UBI. You then get a shelf stacking job, and you get 21k a year ON TOP of your UBI.....so the incentive to work is still there.

If anything, it really incentivises people to fill these low paid jobs because you can actually have a good standard of living on them.

Its hard to imagine a scenario in which this doesn't simply just cause massive inflation. Taxes would have to rise significantly to avoid it, a hard sell.

 

[mid_gen]

Its all up in the air, but the reality is higher taxes would be charge to some in order to fund the whole thing.

The only UBI trials I have seen focus on the mental and similar angles and not how the system would work in its entirity.

You get a significant portion of the costs back by not having to administer a complicated benefits system, and that wouldn't be realised until it's fully rolled out.

Obviously you'd need a limited amount of additional benefit support for the disabled etc.

 

[dlockers]

I did an Excel earlier and the only way to fund this is by poll tax of £19k.

 

[413x]

Very interesting observation about using ubi to pay mortgages.

There was a suggestion that mortgage payments could be tax exempt.

Suspiciously similar effects.

Its why most people on normal incomes aspire to.
This would massively help those already on the ladder.
Especially those with huge mortgages (@dLockers ? )

I fear. What it would do to rentals. There would have to be huge restrictions on rent caps. As private landlords would just suck up that 1900 knowing its available.


But if there were rent caps. In theory.. If this was viable.. Suddenly you wouldn't need to own a house.




Things that are too good to be true usually are... This very much seems like that

 

[xashzx]

Computers have increased the work load, not reduce it as you pointed out.

I think we fundamentally agree, just different semantics. Computers increasing people's efficiency led to workload increases because people are expected to do more (as you say, cutting a business response from a week to seconds). Some jobs were/still are being outright replaced by software -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing, we just need to secure ways for people who are replaceable to still continue in society, but unfortunately that is a very optimistic take

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

You get a significant portion of the costs back by not having to administer a complicated benefits system, and that wouldn't be realised until it's fully rolled out.

Obviously you'd need a limited amount of additional benefit support for the disabled etc.

You do indeed which is why I said simplified tax system, but it would be in reality many systems simplified.
Although its only going to be small change compared the the UBI system itself.

If its ever seriously considered I am sure it would be phased in anyway.
It would be very hard to avoid some people suffering large impacts so would expect them to bring reform some areas over time and slowly introduce UBI.
Eg year 1 set UBI to £2k. Each year add £2k.
Year 1 lower some benefits by roughly £2k, reduced the tax free bandings by something close to £2k impact, lower the £1k interest allowance by 10%, lower the married couples allowance by 10% etc etc

The other thing that can be used to influence behaviour is of course indirect taxes as well.

The one concern I have is that with a decent UBI level then you will need higher taxes as well by default. At that point tax evasion becomes more profitable and attractive to some!

 

[413x]

I did an Excel earlier and the only way to fund this is by poll tax of £19k.

If this money was available.. Our public services wouldn't be in the state they were.

 

[krooton]

I said a proportion, not everyone. I say this because i grew up on a rough council estate and know what some of the inhabitants are like.

One could argue that those currently turning towards crime due to no other income options might be reduced as a result.

 

[Doobedoo]

If this money was available.. Our public services wouldn't be in the state they were.

They would because you always have people that want more for themselves. That 19k would be whittled down fairly quickly.

 

[Mrwong]

I think we fundamentally agree, just different semantics. Computers increasing people's efficiency led to workload increases because people are expected to do more (as you say, cutting a business response from a week to seconds). Some jobs were/still are being outright replaced by software -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing, we just need to secure ways for people who are replaceable to still continue in society, but unfortunately that is a very optimistic take

Unfortunately, it is about personal competition.

1980s trading was carried out in a pit, trading moved into electronic, fax machines green screen computers, then moved into digital age with servers farms buying selling in milliseconds, market profits on minimal price movements frequencies.

Tie this in with information speed and having better knowledge than the next investor, would increase the probability of having better profits and possibly reduce the risks of risker investments that would have a higher payoff from a risk free rate less say.

This is one reason why we are having so many market crashes or mini crashes.

Look at the jobs, quant guys were hot property 2000s. Later you need quant and programming now it has moving to A.I.

A person with a Msc in finance or MSc financial engineering combined with a MSc in data science which contains A.I
From top 10 global university.

Can command 200k to 500k wage in the US at the moment. Even in China they are pay huge wages for that combination. Now you look at the UK the money is just pocket change compared to those countries.

 

[mid_gen]

If this money was available.. Our public services wouldn't be in the state they were.

The money is available, as demonstrated when it all appeared in a hurry when there was an opportunity to funnel it to 'VIP lane' procurement contracts.

People keep voting for a party that is idealogically committed to the destruction of public services, that's why they are in the state they are, and why we're stuck in a spiral of low growth, low productivity, and an increasingly sick population.

 

[Efour]

Amazed so many people don't understand it.....

You don't lose the UBI if you work.

Say you get your £1600 UBI. You then get a shelf stacking job, and you get 21k a year ON TOP of your UBI.....so the incentive to work is still there.

If anything, it really incentivises people to fill these low paid jobs because you can actually have a good standard of living on them.

But it's horse feathers.
You'll be paying £5 for a packet of crisps within days.

It functions only if the state controls everything and everyone is playing the the same game by the same rules.
If everyone gets that payment the basics go up to to the max of that payment overnight.

It can work I'm sure but not by the same rules as today

 

[GGizmo]

We've already got a form of this already. If you don't have a certain amount of money coming in there is a benefit the government gives.

I think this is another sign of how out of control the economy is. I remember when Sunak was chancellor saying he wanted more money in people's hands. Then in that some budget he took it away!

I think this is a good idea. Because it'll also help the local economy too, having people with more disposable income.

I wonder how this will effect people currently on benefits, as some benefits have a £6000 savings limit. Benefits plus this UBI is easily going to push over that value after a few months.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

We've already got a form of this already. If you don't have a certain amount of money coming in there is a benefit the government gives.

I think this is another sign of how out of control the economy is. I remember when Sunak was chancellor saying he wanted more money in people's hands. Then in that some budget he took it away!

I think this is a good idea. Because it'll also help the local economy too, having people with more disposable income.

I wonder how this will effect people currently on benefits, as some benefits have a £6000 savings limit. Benefits plus this UBI is easily going to push over that value after a few months.

You won't get benefits plus UBI
Well maybe some very specific benefits but the point is to do away with many benefits so everyone has enough money to live on.

 

[Efour]

Surely all benefits will be scraped all pensions all everything.

Replaced with "the givs"

 

[413x]

We've already got a form of this already. If you don't have a certain amount of money coming in there is a benefit the government gives.

I think this is another sign of how out of control the economy is. I remember when Sunak was chancellor saying he wanted more money in people's hands. Then in that some budget he took it away!

I think this is a good idea. Because it'll also help the local economy too, having people with more disposable income.

I wonder how this will effect people currently on benefits, as some benefits have a £6000 savings limit. Benefits plus this UBI is easily going to push over that value after a few months.

The point is benefits would be scrapped.

 

[Firestar_3x]

I imagine the UBI benefit will be claimed back if you earn over 19.2k by taxing the first 19.2k of employee pay at 100%.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Surely it's a 1 way ticket for massive inflation? and pretty quickly £1600 won't be what we consider £1600 anymore in value. It would devalue the currency.