Universal basic income to be trialled

[D.P.]

People piping in and claiming we don't understand it, yet offering nothing in the way of understanding. How does giving people £19k not just raise the value of '0' to 19k?

m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/universal-basic-income-does-not-cause-inflation/amp_articleshow/98801058.cms

UBI is no more or less inflationary than anything else that raises incomes - its impact would depend on whether the economy is at full employment, whether taxes are raised to pay for the scheme and various other factors.

Where hyperinflation has occurred, it has occurred because essential goods are scarce, raising their value overall, and debt has been held in foreign currencies and paid in currencies declining in value by virtue of countries' domestic production being disrupted or declining.

 

[Doobedoo]

If you're mortgage free... Its plenty. 3k per month?
If I use our personal circumstances

We pay 1900 into joint account for all. Household bills Inc food. (groceries)
Take 900 off (ie mortgage free) wed have over 2k per month left over. On 1600 a month each!

That's loads! Plenty enough for holidays etc!

Its 24k of disposable I come a year for free!

I can’t see it working like that though.

 

[413x]

I can’t see it working like that though.

No.. Too good to be true.

If it did.. Too many people would stop working.. Tax receipts would collapse and UBI would be unfundable.

That's what I think would happen. A death spiral.

Eventually UBI would be unsustainable and we'd go back to where we were.

 

[Uther]

I can’t see it working like that though.

Not a chance. IF it ever happened I highly doubt it would be at that high an amount either.

 

[dlockers]

m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/universal-basic-income-does-not-cause-inflation/amp_articleshow/98801058.cms

That's a comment around cause and effect of inflation, not how UBI is intended to work. What are the mechanics of UBI was my question.

 

[Doobedoo]

No.. Too good to be true.

If it did.. Too many people would stop working.. Tax receipts would collapse and UBI would be unfundable.

That's what I think would happen. A death spiral.

Eventually UBI would be unsustainable and we'd go back to where we were.

Semple said

Realistically the majority of people would be taxed the full amount back. I'd anticipate (without any numbers available) that anyone earning 30k would get the 20k UBI to make 50k gross, and then be taxed around 25k to leave them in the same position as they would be without any UBI.

 

[Fubsy]

So they don’t exist in this world of free 19k. You going to exclude them?

There are so many issues that it will never work.

I'll bite.

£19k is probably way less than what it currently costs to house an asylum claimant. They would then spend that money and some would come back in through taxation at point of spend.

A slightly more pertinent question would be: How does this scale with growing/shrinking population bases?

 

[englishpremier]

Not entirely sure what to make of it, hence the post to see what everyone else thought.
Giving people a bunch of money for doing nothing doesn’t sound the greatest of ideas tbh, and at some point it’s possible for whatever government to run out of other peoples money.
And if it did become the norm, they’d have to look at increasing pension payments?

Something like that is going to have to come in sooner or later anyway. AI and increased automation should remove a lot of pointless and low paid jobs. It will of course create new jobs as technology always does, but the idea is that is removes more jobs than it creates. Then what do you do with the population? Kill them off? Give each person an AI/robot that can earn them money?

Then we just need to leave it the way it is. Paying someone 1600 a month, 19,200 a year for free without having to even look for work will end up a disaster.

People lower than 20K will just stop working and go onto UBI. That's a lot of jobs.

I don't get ubi.

I don't understand how it's able to be funded.

If this amount of money is available from the wealthy why wouldn't our nhs etc all be amazing? If it's viable that is.

I tell you, if I got 1900 a month I'd drop to a part time easy job. I don't care about my career. I work to live. If I could get half my salary through. UBI I'd find a 2 day a week job.


I can't, in my head, understand how it would work. I wonder how many people like me would just basically drop out of the work force.

This takes care of itself. People like 413x drop down to part time. Others no pick up more part time jobs to top up their income, have some self worth, meet people etc.. For all you know it could end up with a net more people in the workforce.

 

[Mrwong]

I'll bite.

£19k is probably way less than what it currently costs to house an asylum claimant. They would then spend that money and some would come back in through taxation at point of spend.

A slightly more pertinent question would be: How does this scale with growing/shrinking population bases?

And what do you think would happen to country giving its population free 19k.

19k a year in some countries is what they will earn in a lifetime.

Lol if I were in a poorer country and saw that I would chop down a tree build my own boat to get to the uk.

People here are discussing reduce working hour or not even working.
Imagine if you from a poor country and 19k would be life changing.

 

[Efour]

I'll repeat myself to death but if you want this to work you need to bring it with police state or a government/ institution that has control of everything.

Look at the expanse series. Their system on Earth.

 

[glenimp617]

We need to tackle wealth inequality before UBI. Something radical needs to be done though as the future isn't looking pretty.

Remember, money isn't wealth.

Technology has enabled large companies to become more efficient/profitable so shareholders become wealthier. They demand a year on year increase, which drives a certain behaviour (higher prices/lower quality goods).

Maybe a better way would be to introduce UBI to the over 50s and also replace PPI with it. That way there will be more jobs for the youngsters? I know taxing companies is usually the default answer to a lot of this, but I think it needs an overhaul. CEOs shouldn't be giving themselves massive bonuses by increasing profit margins by 5% when they have made thousands of jobs redundant to do so.

It's good how peoples attitudes have changed since I last posted about this many years ago though

 

[glenimp617]

I'll repeat myself to death but if you want this to work you need to bring it with police state or a government/ institution that has control of everything.

Look at the expanse series. Their system on Earth.

Government corruption though.

 

[413x]

Something like that is going to have to come in sooner or later anyway. AI and increased automation should remove a lot of pointless and low paid jobs. It will of course create new jobs as technology always does, but the idea is that is removes more jobs than it creates. Then what do you do with the population? Kill them off? Give each person an AI/robot that can earn them money?





This takes care of itself. People like 413x drop down to part time. Others no pick up more part time jobs to top up their income, have some self worth, meet people etc.. For all you know it could end up with a net more people in the workforce.

Would be interesting to see how it would pan out. Most people might carry on working

Still think it would be much more beneficial for the older demographic

 

[D.P.]

That's a comment around cause and effect of inflation, not how UBI is intended to work. What are the mechanics of UBI was my question.

have you tried the wiki article and its references for starters?

Universal basic income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[D.P.]

We need to tackle wealth inequality before UBI. Something radical needs to be done though as the future isn't looking pretty.

Remember, money isn't wealth.

Technology has enabled large companies to become more efficient/profitable so shareholders become wealthier. They demand a year on year increase, which drives a certain behaviour (higher prices/lower quality goods).

Maybe a better way would be to introduce UBI to the over 50s and also replace PPI with it. That way there will be more jobs for the youngsters? I know taxing companies is usually the default answer to a lot of this, but I think it needs an overhaul. CEOs shouldn't be giving themselves massive bonuses by increasing profit margins by 5% when they have made thousands of jobs redundant to do so.

It's good how peoples attitudes have changed since I last posted about this many years ago though

UBI is a tax tool to combat wealth inequality. If wealth and income were much more equal then there wouldn't be as much need for UBI.

 

[Mrwong]

UBI is a tax tool to combat wealth inequality. If wealth and income were much more equal then there wouldn't be as much need for UBI.

Another tool to hide the problem and another way the public will fall for it.

 

[rumple9]

You remember that show on BBC back in the 80's tomorrows world?

How they thought technology would drastically improve our lives?

Look at us today.

I do however, respect your optimism.

Are you seriously suggesting the business world is not much more efficient now with the advent of computers and the internet? When I started work there were no computers. I can do the same work now in half an hour that previously would have taken half a day

 

[D.P.]

Something like that is going to have to come in sooner or later anyway. AI and increased automation should remove a lot of pointless and low paid jobs. It will of course create new jobs as technology always does, but the idea is that is removes more jobs than it creates. Then what do you do with the population? Kill them off? Give each person an AI/robot that can earn them money?





This takes care of itself. People like 413x drop down to part time. Others no pick up more part time jobs to top up their income, have some self worth, meet people etc.. For all you know it could end up with a net more people in the workforce.

Indeed, one of the problems that many in poverty face is the unemployment trap. It doesn't make it financially rewarding to get off benefits and work and for many the work is just sufficient to survive and no more, which not only makes for a grim existence but leads to low productivity. A UBI combined with an income at even NMW would greatly increase quality of life and hence productivity, with a much higher motivation to work.

But this all overlooks the fact that part of the intended consequences of UBI is to make up for lower employment opportunities, and to fund actives that benefit society and the environment, but are not paid. E.g., maybe someone will reduce hours but will spend the extra time working in a charity, or cleaning u[ a river, planting trees, helping their elderly neighbour with the groceries, spending more time with their family so their children grow up to be even better people. Maybe people take time out of work to re-train and go back tot he work force being more productive in growth areas etc.

 

[D.P.]

Another tool to hide the problem and way the public will fall for it.

well, what is your solution then?
UBI doesn't hide inequality, it pro-actively reduces it

 

[Deleted member 77746]

A UBI combined with an income at even NMW would greatly increase quality of life and hence productivity, with a much higher motivation to work.

You sure about that? Most people would waste it all I recon as they would class it as free money. Especially if they were working getting DOUBLE income.