Unreal Engine 5 - unbelievable.

[KeanuIsLife]

Its so damn minor though - games are like 10% to 20% smaller on ps5 it's not much and it's because of the ssd. If you give me an SSD that is 10 times faster than the previous drive that's great but it's not all gonna be visible in real world gaming, but the performance is there and so that means we can compress games more heavily without affecting visible loading.

But hang on, what about HDds? Exactly.. if you start compressing games more on PC then anyone that doesn't have a fancy fast pcie SSD is going to suffer severely.

It's one thing to make your game load faster if someone has a fast drive and wants to take advantage of it, it's another thing entirely to compress your game and force everyone to upgrade their drives or suffer 5 minute loading screens.

If developers do want to take advantage of direct storage and pcie4+ SSD drives then they should publish two versions of the game files on PC - like one 100gb game file for anyone who can't use direct storage and one 70 or 80GB file for anyone who does use direct storage

That's a good idea but I don't know how viable that's going to be. Pc Devs seem to develop for the lowest common denominator on pc, and I can't see them making 2 versions lime that. Would love to be proven wrong though!

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Its so damn minor though - games are like 10% to 20% smaller on ps5 it's not much and it's because of the ssd. If you give me an SSD that is 10 times faster than the previous drive that's great but it's not all gonna be visible in real world gaming, but the performance is there and so that means we can compress games more heavily without affecting visible loading.

But hang on, what about HDds? Exactly.. if you start compressing games more on PC then anyone that doesn't have a fancy fast pcie SSD is going to suffer severely.

It's one thing to make your game load faster if someone has a fast drive and wants to take advantage of it, it's another thing entirely to compress your game and force everyone to upgrade their drives or suffer 5 minute loading screens.

If developers do want to take advantage of direct storage and pcie4+ SSD drives then they should publish two versions of the game files on PC - like one 100gb game file for anyone who can't use direct storage and one 70 or 80GB file for anyone who does use direct storage

That is quite a few GBs on a 100GB install.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Games like BF/COD are't using Unreal 5, so why do people think games that do will need more space?!

I'm not too bothered either way, I have a 1TB OS nvme and an 8TB SATA SSD so on the rare chance I need the space, I'll utilise that I think.

More detailed models and textures, better pre baked simulations and better sound will all add up.

 

[Calin Banc]

The lack of decent water is one of the things which has really killed the immersion of games - TDU2 for instance had some fairly decent graphics for the most part until you got to things like waterfalls which were LOL worthy billboard sprites (around the same parts the limits of their terrain engine would start to show as well).

Plenty of good stuff around, even for UE4. The only thing is... for devs to actually put this in their games.

 

[Alan McFall]

Plenty of good stuff around, even for UE4. The only thing is... for devs to actually put this in their games.

2024 is going to be a breakthrough year for games I think.. the new hardware that's coming next year should give dev's a lot more options.

Wil games in the earlier stages of development now be able to take advantage of the new hardware ?

 

[KeanuIsLife]

The lack of decent water is one of the things which has really killed the immersion of games - TDU2 for instance had some fairly decent graphics for the most part until you got to things like waterfalls which were LOL worthy billboard sprites (around the same parts the limits of their terrain engine would start to show as well).

Yeah I have to say water is definitely a sticking point. Was playing Ghost Of Tsushima and everything looks incredible apart from when you're in the water which just doesn't look current gen.....it's a shame

 

[Calin Banc]

The lack of decent water is one of the things which has really killed the immersion of games - TDU2 for instance had some fairly decent graphics for the most part until you got to things like waterfalls which were LOL worthy billboard sprites (around the same parts the limits of their terrain engine would start to show as well).

Probably it wasn't any performance budget left, especially on the base PS4.

2024 is going to be a breakthrough year for games I think.. the new hardware that's coming next year should give dev's a lot more options.

Wil games in the earlier stages of development now be able to take advantage of the new hardware ?

Powerful hardware is on the market for a long time already. Things are changing due to new consoles (old ones were/are holding back the gaming development), although, if they target 4k@60 natively, then the jump in graphic fidelity (and gameplay), will be lower than let's say 1440p@30fps or even 1080p@30fps.

Anyway, lets not forget what Red Faction did back in the past on old hardware, stuff which even now has no rival.

 

[Alan McFall]

Powerful hardware is on the market for a long time already. Things are changing due to new consoles (old ones were/are holding back the gaming development), although, if they target 4k@60 natively, then the jump in graphic fidelity (and gameplay), will be lower than let's say 1440p@30fps or even 1080p@30fps.

Anyway, lets not forget what Red Faction did back in the past on old hardware, stuff which even now has no rival.

PC gaming is only restricted by consoles in the sense that some developers design and optimise specifically for consoles.

Raytracing is an industry standard, real time raytracing is extremely new and yet it is already being widely implemented and accepted as a gaming standard, the fact that consoles can now do it at a basic level doesn't mean that games will be restricted to that, I think it will ATLEAST that, once the artists have the new tools they and the hardware manufacturers will want to show what they are capable of. .. or else what's the point ?

I wouldn't be surprised at all by an upgraded RDNA3 console from both Sony and Microsoft next year.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

PC gaming is only restricted by consoles in the sense that some developers design and optimise specifically for consoles.

This is disingenuous.
Consoles are the lead platform for the significant majority of multiplatform video games because they have a huge install base (Approx 160 million last generation). And developers know that every single ones of those working consoles will be able to play their games at with almost identical experiences.

To hand wave it as "some developers" is a joke.

And before someone goes but steam has 120 million user. How many of those 120 million will be able play the next call of duty on their PCs without it running like ****?

 

[LtMatt]

This is disingenuous.
Consoles are the lead platform for the significant majority of multiplatform video games because they have a huge install base (Approx 160 million last generation). And developers know that every single ones of those working consoles will be able to play their games at with almost identical experiences.

To hand wave it as "some developers" is a joke.

And before someone goes but steam has 120 million user. How many of those 120 million will be able play the next call of duty on their PCs without it running like ****?

You’re also forgetting the price of console games, that’s where all the money is.

 

[KeanuIsLife]

Probably it wasn't any performance budget left, especially on the base PS4.



Powerful hardware is on the market for a long time already. Things are changing due to new consoles (old ones were/are holding back the gaming development), although, if they target 4k@60 natively, then the jump in graphic fidelity (and gameplay), will be lower than let's say 1440p@30fps or even 1080p@30fps.

Anyway, lets not forget what Red Faction did back in the past on old hardware, stuff which even now has no rival.

Damn I love Red Faction and it's destruction!! Still so incredibly fun and as you say, not rivalled even today

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

You’re also forgetting the price of console games, that’s where all the money is.

Yes I did. What is it £70 for a brand new console games now. And little worry about piracy or Steam summer sales.

 

[Alan McFall]

This is disingenuous.
Consoles are the lead platform for the significant majority of multiplatform video games because they have a huge install base (Approx 160 million last generation). And developers know that every single ones of those working consoles will be able to play their games at with almost identical experiences.

To hand wave it as "some developers" is a joke.

And before someone goes but steam has 120 million user. How many of those 120 million will be able play the next call of duty on their PCs without it running like ****?

Some developers, ok which games companies produce games exclusively for console ? I'm interested to know, I was not being disingenuous, I sincerely thought there wasn't that many in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Some developers, ok which games companies produce games exclusively for console ? I'm interested to know, I was not being disingenuous, I sincerely thought there wasn't that many in the grand scheme of things.

First and foremost i never said anything about exclusively, but I will point you to Sony's studios.

Games that push graphical hardware are usually AAA games (I can not think of an exception). Only large studios have the financial resources for AAA games. So all the big ones you already know of Activision, ubisoft, EA, etc.. have the resources to create AAA games. A majority of AAA games are multiplatform, there are exception such as star citizen. At this point my previous statement applies

Consoles are the lead platform for the significant majority of multiplatform video games because they have a huge install base (Approx 160 million last generation). And developers know that every single ones of those working consoles will be able to play their games at with almost identical experiences.

 

[Alan McFall]

First and foremost i never said anything about exclusively, but I will point you to Sony's studios.

Games that push graphical hardware are usually AAA games (I can not think of an exception). Only large studios have the financial resources for AAA games. So all the big ones you already know of Activision, ubisoft, EA, etc.. have the resources to create AAA games. A majority of AAA games are multiplatform, there are exception such as star citizen. At this point my previous statement applies

Calin Banc: "Powerful hardware is on the market for a long time already. Things are changing due to new consoles (old ones were/are holding back the gaming development)"
Me : "PC gaming is only restricted by consoles in the sense that some developers design and optimise specifically for consoles."
You: "This is disingenuous."
Me: "which games companies produce games exclusively for console ?"
You: "Sony's studios.. A majority of AAA games are multiplatform"

Most of the games are developed on PC with the PC version having the option of better graphics and framerates, not limited to what a console can do. Now that consoles are more powerful PC games wont need to be dumbed down so much to work at acceptable levels on them.

Real time raytracing hardware is only three years old and we already have raytraced games.. games that will need optimisation to run on next gen consoles. Do you agree with Calin's original statement, if so, how would you say console games were/are holding back games development ? maybe I'm misunderstanding something here..

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Most of the games are developed on PC

So are mobile phone apps. The means of development does not matter.

PC version having the option of better graphics and framerates, not limited to what a console can do.

When designing a game the devlopers will sit down and determine what framerate, resolution and graphical fidelity they want to hit on the consoles. Then they try to match it on PC for a set hardware.

Those extra graphical options and features you get on PC are usually setting, that from a development point of view, are really easy to implement. Certain setting it is just changing a few number in the game engine. Lets take textures. lets say that the console version is using 2k textures and you want to offer 4k or 8k textures on PC, here is what you do.
Step 1: Open substance painter
Step 2: Click Export
Step 3: Change export resolution
Step 4: Export
Step 5: Add to game engine.

About 2-5 minutes to export per model (depending on how complex the texture is) and you could probably create a script to automate it. Minimal work and now you have a graphical setting for all those rocking £2000+ PC to use.

Now that consoles are more powerful PC games wont need to be dumbed down so much to work at acceptable levels on them.

Till the consoles age.

Real time raytracing hardware is only three years old and we already have raytraced games.. games that will need optimisation to run on next gen consoles. Do you agree with Calin's original statement, if so, how would you say console games were/are holding back games development ? maybe I'm misunderstanding something here..

Go back to the 2080ti vs the PS4.

The 2080ti is orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS4. Do you think that a game developer will create settings (without external influence) to really push the graphics for the few people (relative to the PS4 install base) who own a 2080ti? Think about the money spent to add significant detail, that only a handful of people can enjoy.

But also you don't want to fracture the experience. The PC ports of games could easily push more objects on screen, more effects, more enemies and maybe hit 30fps , you would need to rebalance of maps when you start throwing in more objects into the enviroment, but then people would be having a very different gaming experience depending on which verion they bought.

The reason PC ports play at high frame rates relative to the console versions is because those GPUs are not being pushed, so they use the rest of the grunt to drive framerates. With the new consoles, we are close to neck and neck, but give it 5 years and the cycle repeats.

 

[Alan McFall]

The 2080ti is orders of magnitude more powerful than the PS4. Do you think that a game developer will create settings (without external influence) to really push the graphics for the few people (relative to the PS4 install base) who own a 2080ti? Think about the money spent to add significant detail, that only a handful of people can enjoy.

Yes they do and they did, I upgraded from a GTX 970 which is faster than a PS4. I could only play AAA games on medium settings @ 1080p after 3 years (skipped RTX2000 as the RT tech was too young). I believe that if you asked a developer if they would prefer to be constrained by console hardware or PC hardware the answer is fairly obvious, it's like asking an artist if they would rather paint on a canvas or on the back of a cigarette box (yes I know ).

A handful of people.. now who's being disingenuous Was it only 2080ti owners that benefitted from the performance and fidelity increases over the generations.. what about everyone else who had better than a HD7970 ?

I honestly think were arguing about different things here, i'm talking limitations and I think you're talking about wider implementation. Either way, PC graphics are not held back by consoles, they pave the way.

 

[KeanuIsLife]

Yes they do and they did, I upgraded from a GTX 970 which is faster than a PS4. I could only play AAA games on medium settings @ 1080p after 3 years (skipped RTX2000 as the RT tech was too young). I believe that if you asked a developer if they would prefer to be constrained by console hardware or PC hardware the answer is fairly obvious, it's like asking an artist if they would rather paint on a canvas or on the back of a cigarette box (yes I know ).

A handful of people.. now who's being disingenuous Was it only 2080ti owners that benefitted from the performance and fidelity increases over the generations.. what about everyone else who had better than a HD7970 ?

I honestly think were arguing about different things here, i'm talking limitations and I think you're talking about wider implementation. Either way, PC graphics are not held back by consoles, they pave the way.

I think what he's saying is most won't push the boat out to really push the high end GPUs like the 2080Tis. You'll have your Crysis and Metro etc. but the majority of games on pc don't look so much better than on console. They are also not as well optimized on pc as console so you can get games that work on console when, on paper, you'd think they really shouldn't. But then if you're not getting the graphical power you can often just play at much higher FPS than consoles so it does benefit those who can afford to buy the higher end stuff. And anyway for some of us just being able to play at the highest settings and framerates is enough to justify the cost for our hobby!

 

[Zarax]

On PC market the real question is: Can it run on a Geforce MX330 2GB or lower?
Before you jump on me, that's what the cheapest laptops with dGPU on sale today uses, which is already better than the bulk of laptop the market.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Yes they do

Start naming multiplatform developers that add significant detail (not just the easy toggle switches) for PC games?

I believe that if you asked a developer if they would prefer to be constrained by console hardware or PC hardware the answer is fairly obvious

It would be console because they have known system hardware to work with compared to PC where you have any number of combination of hardware to account for.

A handful of people.. now who's being disingenuous Was it only 2080ti owners that benefitted from the performance and fidelity increases over the generations.. what about everyone else who had better than a HD7970 ?

You are, i said relative to the install base of the PS4. The can use console setting if they can't keep up with the 2080ti. Do you want tally those people up and then compare them to the install base of the consoles?

There is a reason why games like fortnight are popular, is because they run well on anything and therefore have lower barrier to entry and can access a much larger audience.

I honestly think were arguing about different things here, i'm talking limitations and I think you're talking about wider implementation.

Vague statements don't help

Either way, PC graphics are not held back by consoles, they pave the way.

And consoles make it mainstream.