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Unreal Engine 5 - unbelievable.

A game engine can work best for a certain genre of games but be a handicap for others. Some years back there was an issue with EA mandating the use of the frostbite engine across all their games and it was causing issues.

Performance wise, it shouldn't be in the majority of cases. The shooter genre is about the same (pretty homogeneous), they don't make Star Citizen in order to command a significant change in the engine like it was with Cry Engine. Something like Immortals of Aveum had no excuse to run poorly on launch as it's even more simplistic in gameplay than Fortnite. Stalker 2 is larger, but still, the player moves slowly and if in Fortnite is possible, it should be here as well.

Basically is all down to the developers. Don't know if you were playing back then, but Half Life 2 came around and had a beautiful optimization and yet, Vampires Bloodlines came along, on the same engine, which ran poorly and was full of bugs.
 
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Something is off about all these, some random youtuber, same style of thumbnail, crap audio....
 
Quite a superficial take and focused more on bashing UE.

In other words, if UE was missing, then there would be a bunch of similar number of games that would run badly on their own engine or on a 3rd party one.

Not really... he's not wrong either, UE has some pretty serious performance problems that are being ignored by its developers, its core needs rebuilding and bringing upto date, its doable, tho it is very difficult, very expensive and time consuming.... but doable, look at what CIG did with Cryengine, they turned a 20+ year old engine in to the most advanced, most photo realistic and most efficient engine there is. They started that journey in 2017 and are just putting the final touches in, i don't know how much that task cost but CIG have just published total cost of the project so far, its 1 Billion $.
 
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Not really... he's not wrong either, UE has some pretty serious performance problems that are being ignored by its developers, its core needs rebuilding and bringing upto date, its doable, tho it is very difficult, very expensive and time consuming.... but doable, look at what CIG did with Cryengine, they turned a 20+ year old engine in to the most advanced, most photo realistic and most efficient engine there is. They started that journey in 2017 and are just putting the final touches in, i don't know how much that task cost but CIG have just published total cost of the project so far, its 1 Billion $.
Agree, Cry Engine - aka Star Engine, went a long way. I'm still waiting to see how it handles a large crowd of relative complex AI ran locally and not in the cloud, but is a very good example - I was thinking the same. Still, the 1 billion mark is for practically 2 games, along side building teams and acquiring property and building studios, not one rewritten engine. Another one that runs well is the ID from Indiana Jones, at least in terms of scaling on the CPU.

To compare to other games engines, for instance Kingdom Come Deliverance 1, ran poorly in the major city or big crowds as well, due to AI I'm guessing. Stalker 2 also tends to have the GPU usage drop and run poorly in the same settings (Immortals of Aveum has a similar issue). Stalker 2 and KCD, both have relative complex AI, not just your simple pedestrian AI that aimlessly goes around like in other games. Sure, AC Unity and Hitman can have large crowds, but they're simulated at a very simplistic level.

Anyway, just as Star Engine evolved over the years, so does UE5. There is no game to see how it handles its latest version. Plus, some "good practices" perhaps are ignored - like I've posted above, to avoid overdraw just either use old techniques or use go for high quality models with Nanite, don't combine...

Other issues that he talks about, like the texture streaming... never had any issues. I hope people are not still thinking to run games from old HDDs?
 
Agree, Cry Engine - aka Star Engine, went a long way. I'm still waiting to see how it handles a large crowd of relative complex AI ran locally and not in the cloud, but is a very good example - I was thinking the same. Still, the 1 billion mark is for practically 2 games, along side building teams and acquiring property and building studios, not one rewritten engine. Another one that runs well is the ID from Indiana Jones, at least in terms of scaling on the CPU.

To compare to other games engines, for instance Kingdom Come Deliverance 1, ran poorly in the major city or big crowds as well, due to AI I'm guessing. Stalker 2 also tends to have the GPU usage drop and run poorly in the same settings (Immortals of Aveum has a similar issue). Stalker 2 and KCD, both have relative complex AI, not just your simple pedestrian AI that aimlessly goes around like in other games. Sure, AC Unity and Hitman can have large crowds, but they're simulated at a very simplistic level.

Anyway, just as Star Engine evolved over the years, so does UE5. There is no game to see how it handles its latest version. Plus, some "good practices" perhaps are ignored - like I've posted above, to avoid overdraw just either use old techniques or use go for high quality models with Nanite, don't combine...

Other issues that he talks about, like the texture streaming... never had any issues. I hope people are not still thinking to run games from old HDDs?

Yeah... i'm not saying UE is bad, (i know you don't think that) i'm a huge fan of it, so far as i'm concerned it does some impressive things, but it does have flaws, as does Star Engine. Another thing that i agree with about UE is that for as good as it looks the different materials types do blend together, it all has the same plastic quality to the surfaces appearance.
And yes there are some other very good engines out there.

Texture Streaming / Traversal Streaming, if you use high res texture, 4K or have a lot of independent textures in the scene UE does have issues, i know that from experience, they can load in blurry, it is one of its problems, it doesn't deal well with very high resolution textures, if you have it scatter a bunch of the free Nordic Coast assets in, you will see what i mean, they use 4K and 8K textures, just a few assets with those textures and it all becomes a blurry mess.

Star Citizen AI / NPC's. Given its an MMO everyone else needs to see what you're seeing, if you're running NPC's and their AI locally on your machine there are serval stages your actions need to go through before other clients see what you did, this is problematic not least because everyone's internet and client performance is different, if the server is handling all that its streamed to everyone at the same time.

It does create a problem, Infamously in Star Citizen if the servers are overloaded the NPC's don't work well, Server Meshing should solve that problem and early days of Server Meshing being in now that looks like it might be true, while still not perfect they are 90% better, they no longer stand around looking lost or take 10 seconds to react when you shoot at them, now sometimes they are a little too keen shooting back, chasing you shouting profanities at you, need's more work but infinitely better and fun.
Having 600 players per shard is also a bonus even if there are now 2 systems with the new one, Pyro, being 2X the size of Stanton. its feels a lot more alive than it did with a 100 player cap, not really an MMO, you're always seeing people out and about now, that's with a 10 server shard mesh, i can't wait for them to scale it up to dozens. But for now with 2 systems 600 players per shard seems fine, you don't want too much people going on.
 
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Interesting bit of trivia for you.

The term "Shard" which is to describe a mesh of servers, was coined by Ultima Online, who also created the Server Meshing tech, the studio, Origin Systems, was owned by Chris Roberts, Weirdly most people know him for Wing Commander, Freelancer... and yet his studio created the first MMO.

Published by EA, who eventually bought the studio and then named their Launcher app after it......
 
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Yeah... i'm not saying UE is bad, (i know you don't think that) i'm a huge fan of it, so far as i'm concerned it does some impressive things, but it does have flaws, as does Star Engine. Another thing that i agree with about UE is that for as good as it looks the different materials types do blend together, it all has the same plastic quality to the surfaces appearance.
And yes there are some other very good engines out there.

Texture Streaming / Traversal Streaming, if you use high res texture, 4K or have a lot of independent textures in the scene UE does have issues, i know that from experience, they can load in blurry, it is one of its problems, it doesn't deal well with very high resolution textures, if you have it scatter a bunch of the free Nordic Coast assets in, you will see what i mean, they use 4K and 8K textures, just a few assets with those textures and it all becomes a blurry mess.

Star Citizen AI / NPC's. Given its an MMO everyone else needs to see what you're seeing, if you're running NPC's and their AI locally on your machine there are serval stages your actions need to go through before other clients see what you did, this is problematic not least because everyone's internet and client performance is different, if the server is handling all that its streamed to everyone at the same time.

It does create a problem, Infamously in Star Citizen if the servers are overloaded the NPC's don't work well, Server Meshing should solve that problem and early days of Server Meshing being in now that looks like it might be true, while still not perfect they are 90% better, they no longer stand around looking lost or take 10 seconds to react when you shoot at them, now sometimes they are a little too keen shooting back, chasing you shouting profanities at you, need's more work but infinitely better and fun.
Having 600 players per shard is also a bonus even if there are now 2 systems with the new one, Pyro, being 2X the size of Stanton. its feels a lot more alive than it did with a 100 player cap, not really an MMO, you're always seeing people out and about now, that's with a 10 server shard mesh, i can't wait for them to scale it up to dozens. But for now with 2 systems 600 players per shard seems fine, you don't want too much people going on.
I haven't played in the editor, so I can't say much outside of a couple games - Immortals of Aveum and Stalker 2. Both run well, don't have problems streaming textures at 4k and overall look very good - not really a plastic look feel (especially Stalker 2 which kept impressively well the overall atmosphere from the original games). I would say though, outside of V Sync or Frame Gen, frame time could use some improvement. Also speaking of Stalker 2, the flashlight not casting a shadow and also no shadows from muzzle flash or those fire barrels around stalker camps... well, a mod easily adds shadows to your flashlight, pointing out what should have been obvious: is just a (stupid/lazy) dev decision not to have them, is not the engine. You simply can't miss something like this (I'm talking about the guy in the video).

BTW, have you looked into some possible "good practice" guide to avoid the streaming texture issue? Or run it in an exe, outside of editor? First that I hear of it.

I was referring rather towards SQ42, the SP aspect since we couldn't really play test it like that. :)

Oh, another thing that I found amusing is some suggestions that pop up to use Source. People either forgot or didn't know about Vampires Bloodlines or Dark Messiah of Might and Migic, also made on Source around HF2, but... didn't have the same polish, making this more about the... studio, not the engine.
 
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Good watch.


A classic case of a nobody Youtuber pontificating on a subject they don't understand and trying very hard to sound like they do.
Not really... he's not wrong either, UE has some pretty serious performance problems that are being ignored by its developers, its core needs rebuilding and bringing upto date, its doable, tho it is very difficult, very expensive and time consuming.... but doable, look at what CIG did with Cryengine, they turned a 20+ year old engine in to the most advanced, most photo realistic and most efficient engine there is. They started that journey in 2017 and are just putting the final touches in, i don't know how much that task cost but CIG have just published total cost of the project so far, its 1 Billion $.
The performance you see in a game is 99% down to the game code that the game developers have written. Not some fundamental issue with the engine itself. Whatever engine you use to make your game, you need to write your game code in a way that is optimal for that engine, and the type of game you're making has massive implications on the kind of challenges you face.
Star Citizen AI / NPC's. Given its an MMO everyone else needs to see what you're seeing, if you're running NPC's and their AI locally on your machine there are serval stages your actions need to go through before other clients see what you did, this is problematic not least because everyone's internet and client performance is different, if the server is handling all that its streamed to everyone at the same time.

It does create a problem, Infamously in Star Citizen if the servers are overloaded the NPC's don't work well, Server Meshing should solve that problem and early days of Server Meshing being in now that looks like it might be true, while still not perfect they are 90% better, they no longer stand around looking lost or take 10 seconds to react when you shoot at them, now sometimes they are a little too keen shooting back, chasing you shouting profanities at you, need's more work but infinitely better and fun.
Having 600 players per shard is also a bonus even if there are now 2 systems with the new one, Pyro, being 2X the size of Stanton. its feels a lot more alive than it did with a 100 player cap, not really an MMO, you're always seeing people out and about now, that's with a 10 server shard mesh, i can't wait for them to scale it up to dozens. But for now with 2 systems 600 players per shard seems fine, you don't want too much people going on.
Yikes? Does SC run AI on the client, or the server? It's a pretty fundamental distinction and has massive implications for how things function, perform and scale.

Besides all this, the biggest challenge in game development is not the technical rendering and audio capabilities of the engine, it's the productivity and workflow. Ultimately you have a finite amount of man hours to get a game out the door, and you have to choose which features make it, and which don't, in order to not run out of money. Features and capabilities not making it launch is never because a developer was 'lazy', a term that gets thrown around by people that spend too much time sat on their ass not being productive :P
 
@mid_gen we are talking about UE as a tool for pick up and use, if you're customising or modifying the code the conversation obviously isn't about UE anymore. :)

SC AI calculations and decision making is run on the server, the client only renders the visual aspect of the NPC's, this is common for online multiplayer games as to provide consistency for player interaction, as well as anti cheating methods.
 
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Epic talks shop about stuttering in games that use its Unreal Engine​



CDPR might go some way to helping Epic fix this mess with their own projects in the pipe based on UE5.

Ok good, this is better than dismissing these complaints about this engine as a conspiracy.

Acknowledge, get help (no shame in asking for help if you can't figure it out, no one is perfect) and fix...... Good job :) Looking forward to fixes, the shader and texture streaming in this engine is atrocious.
 
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That's blurry, quite nice apart from it does look like someone smeared vaseline over the camera lens.

Temporal Anti-Aliasing (TAA) it samples data from neighbouring pixels and overlays it in the frame, its essentially smoothing edges by literally smudging them using surrounding pixels and in that way removing jaggies.

This is why it appears blurry, because it is, its removing the jaggies by turning a razor sharp edge in to a mushy gradient of pixels.

I don't like it either, MSAA and SMAA look way better, the problem with these techniques is performance given they rely on upscaling the pixel density and with that shrinking the pixel size reducing the stepping between them, effectively creating 'in part at least' a higher resolution image, a bit like DLSS and FSR.
The performance loss in that comes from the computational power needed and rendering effectively more pixels, the result however is a pin sharp image.

TAA is not unique to Unreal Engine, far from it, its actually ubiquitous in games now.
 
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Temporal Anti-Aliasing (TAA) it samples data from neighbouring pixels and overlays it in the frame, its essentially smoothing edges by literally smudging them using surrounding pixels and in that way removing jaggies.

This is why it appears blurry, because it is, its removing the jaggies by turning a razor sharp edge in to a mushy gradient of pixels.

I don't like it either, MSAA and SMAA look way better, the problem with these techniques is performance given they rely on upscaling the pixel density and with that shrinking the pixel size reducing the stepping between them, effectively creating 'in part at least' a higher resolution image, a bit like DLSS and FSR.
The performance loss in that comes from the computational power needed and rendering effectively more pixels, the result however is a pin sharp image.

TAA is not unique to Unreal Engine, far from it, its actually ubiquitous in games now.
Yep I see it every day and because its computationally cheap it's an easy 'cheat' that is making games look progressively ******r. Same with upscaling a 1080 image to 4K it's 'cheaper' and easier using DLSS/FSR ideally with a bit of AI thrown in than doing it native but sadly even with my tired old eyes it's make games look rubbish or at least not remotely as good as they could look. I get that many developers don't want to spend the money making decent games any more and it's super easy to do a 'good enough' botch job using UE5 but it is unfortunate for image snobs such as me. I've been obsessed with image quality and clarity since visiting DID in the late 90s and seeing Wargasm in all its glory then immediately acquiring two Voodoo 2 12mbs in SLI to play it and now we seem to be going backwards in some respects. OK not backwards but two steps forwards one step back and occasionally a bit more than one step back.
 
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That's blurry, quite nice apart from it does look like someone smeared vaseline over the camera lens.
It's not the sharpest, but considering it's YT + some dodgy camera focus/dof (you can see that objects closer to you are not in focus), with some proper work it can look good.
 
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Epic talks shop about stuttering in games that use its Unreal Engine​



CDPR might go some way to helping Epic fix this mess with their own projects in the pipe based on UE5.
I'll believe it when I see it... been seeing articles about Epic "solving" stuttering issues in UE for over a decade now. Its always "its going to be fixed in the next UE version" and never happens.
 
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