Upgrade options for peak cooling/overclocking potential

I was actually wondering if removing the back pcie covers would be a good idea, would I not be paying a trade off with dust accumulation when the system is off though?

I was also going to get a replacement 120mm fan to go on front of the dh15 (due to clearance), and use the 140mm that would otherwise be there in top exhaust slot.

What are your thoughts on another 120mm on rear exhaust? I'd have thought that due to the cpu cooler being so close to the back I'd imagine it should provide the same effect.

M
 
ProfitMajin said:
I was actually wondering if removing the back pcie covers would be a good idea, would I not be paying a trade off with dust accumulation when the system is off though?

I was also going to get a replacement 120mm fan to go on front of the dh15 (due to clearance), and use the 140mm that would otherwise be there in top exhaust slot.

What are your thoughts on another 120mm on rear exhaust? I'd have thought that due to the cpu cooler being so close to the back I'd imagine it should provide the same effect.

M
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Air (& dust) being drawn in through PCIe back openings is much more likely when exhaust fans are used with intake fans. I used both for many years before I realized using both intake and exhaust fans on case was like using both push and pull fans on cooler or radiator. 2x fans make about 3 dB more noise than 1x fan at same speed. Speeding up 1x fan speed to same dB as 2x fans increased it's airflow to same amount as 2x fans .. same airflow equals same temps. So only time 2x fan give lower temps (1-2c .. rarely 3c) is when they are running full speed .. again something we rarely do. There have been a few cases (no pun) using exhaust fan/s did give lower temps, but it's rare. In these cases (again no pun)the exhaust fan changes case airflow paths and this changing of airflow paths results in lower temps.

2x fans vs 1x fan on D15 is same as above. Test after test has found 0c to 2c with extremely rare 3c difference when running 2x fans vs 1x fan .. which is why Noctua says NH-D15S cools as well as NH-D15. The few times there is 2-3c difference it's the result of 2nd fan changing case airflow paths / patterns and supplying D15 with cooler air .. and every degree cooler air is entering cooler translates into same degrees cooler CPU is. ;)

Same as above. Less fans make less noise and cool as well as more fans making more noise. I build a couple system a month and haven't used an exhaust fan in so long I can't remember when last time was. ;)
Just use good pressure rated intakes and of course block openings in front half of case not being used by those intake fans. Then case will have better front to back airflow, run cooler, quieter, and no dust will come in PCIe slots. Of course case fan's speeds need to cycle with component fan speed so case fans are always moving a little more air through case than coolers fans are using. ;)
 
This is brilliant thank you doyll!

I was watching some videos last night on Big air coolers which actually showed the same minor difference between the D15 and D15S, so I think I'll skip buying any 120s.

I won't be able to use the second 140 that comes with the D15 cooler either way, and was planning to mount it in the top exhaust. Would I be doing myself a disservice using that up there? I suppose I'll need to do some testing to know for sure...

Thanks again,
M
 
My guess is using it as top exhaust would be create more problems than it solves. With PCIe back slots out, it doesn't take much exhaust airflow to lower case pressure and allow GPU fan nearest back of case to draw air in.

Keep in mind our case fans make almost no pressure. They have about as much pressure differential between intake and exhaust sides of fan as there is between the pressure on our feet and on our chest standing at sea level. Yeah, 1mm H2O difference in pressure is almost no difference at all. ;)

If you want to use 2nd fan, mount cooler fans so front on (in middle) is attached to front finpack and back fan on back of back finpack. But doing this does increase fan noise, even if only one is mounted to front finpack in middle. Noctua supplies thick corner pads with NH-U14S to space fan on back of U14S away from fins. (see below quote from Noctua) The thicker pads make up the difference impeller spacing is from fins created by thickness of motor mounting straps from outter frame to back of motor on exhaust side of fan ;)

"Adding a second fan
The NH-U14S includes an extra set of fan clips and an extra set of thicker anti-vibration pads for installing a second NF-A15 fan in push/pull mode in order to further improve cooling performance. Please use the thicker anti-vibration pads on the rear NF-A-15 fan for improved acoustics if space allows. The y-cable supplied with the retail NF-A15 fan can be used to control the speed of both fans via the same motherboard fan header."
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See I've read about airflow being less effective than believed, but there's also a bugger load of evidence to suggest that exhaust (concurrent with airflow direction) would still assist.

For example even GN standardised fan layout includes exhaust fan.

And although up top isn't concurrent with the airflow, it is with convection direction, I would have thought it'd help, but I guess testing should confirm that.

More curious than anything.

Thanks,
M
 
I've actually made the switch now, and have the setup in the new Phanteks p400a case, with the Noctua Chromax, which fit just fine. I mounted the second fan on the back, rather than the front, due to clearance, and other than that, no clearance issues at all.

The PC is now whisper-quiet in comparison to what I had before, the GPU thermals are much improved, now able to keep well below the 75C throttle mark, however, the CPU thermals have gotten *slightly* worse, maybe 4-5 degrees hotter than the Arctic I cooler it replaced. I'm running a 4.7Ghz OC on it atm, 1.25 core voltage, and 1.9 or so input voltage, so that's a fair amount, although the limiting factor is de-lidding which would likely alleviate a good 15C or so given the age of the part.
 
Delid with LM will drop temp considerably. Made a lot easier these days with the Delid tool available unlike back in the day when everyone was using a razor blade! Fair chance you'll get 4.8 around 1.3ish after a delid.
 
Doug2507 said:
Delid with LM will drop temp considerably. Made a lot easier these days with the Delid tool available unlike back in the day when everyone was using a razor blade! Fair chance you'll get 4.8 around 1.3ish after a delid.
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I think this is the way to go, as a while back I managed to boot to Windows @ 4.8Ghz and I think maybe even 4.9 (at least 4.85Ghz for sure), although that was just booting to Windows, the temps were way too high to do anything.

Besides, if I fluff it up, I suppose I'll just have to get a nice new Ryzen for Christmas :cool:
 
ProfitMajin said:
I've actually made the switch now, and have the setup in the new Phanteks p400a case, with the Noctua Chromax, which fit just fine. I mounted the second fan on the back, rather than the front, due to clearance, and other than that, no clearance issues at all.

The PC is now whisper-quiet in comparison to what I had before, the GPU thermals are much improved, now able to keep well below the 75C throttle mark, however, the CPU thermals have gotten *slightly* worse, maybe 4-5 degrees hotter than the Arctic I cooler it replaced. I'm running a 4.7Ghz OC on it atm, 1.25 core voltage, and 1.9 or so input voltage, so that's a fair amount, although the limiting factor is de-lidding which would likely alleviate a good 15C or so given the age of the part.
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Did you block openings not covered by intake fans in front half of case so the air front intake pushing into case moves on through case and no circle around in front to go in circles?
Link below is basics of airflow and how to optimize case airflow. You might find it helpful:
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/t...-i-put-my-temp-sensor.18564223/#post-26159770


ProfitMajin said:
See I've read about airflow being less effective than believed, but there's also a bugger load of evidence to suggest that exhaust (concurrent with airflow direction) would still assist.

For example even GN standardised fan layout includes exhaust fan.

And although up top isn't concurrent with the airflow, it is with convection direction, I would have thought it'd help, but I guess testing should confirm that.

More curious than anything.

Thanks,
M
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Stacking fans is intake / exhaust in case or push / pull on a cooler or radiator. Only difference stacking fans does is increase static pressure. It does not increase airflow directly but can give more airflow because increased pressure rating means fan can overcome resistance to airflow easier.

GN case fan setup testing doesn't even say what fans were used or their pressure ratings. Most stock fans are worthless. Phanteks stock are pretty good, Fractal Design have horribly low pressure rating. Cas intakes need to be rated about 1.5mm H2O @ 1400rpm or more. Rating is at full speed in most specs. Noctua give LNA and ULNA speed and pressure ratings, but they are only one I know .. except for commercial fans.

What it blows down to is intake and exhaust might help improve airflow but usually not. Reason is case has so many other holes besides ones we have intake and maybe exhaust fans in that the pull / exhaust fan can't help intake fan except to maybe help flow air out of case a little better. I've studied case airflow on many different cases. Main thing using back exhaust did was change case airflow paths a little. If we use good high pressure fans we don't need exhaust fans .. same as using good fans on a cooler / radiator don't need push pull because improvement is minimal .. 1-2c to be realistic.

As for your "convection direction," even the slightest bit of fan airflow knocks all convection / heated air rising out of equation.

NH-D15 vs NH-D15S is best example of 2x fans vs 1x fan with D15 being 1-2c cooler than D15S, but that is at full speed only. At same db they cool the same.
 
Hey Doyll! Thank you for the detailed reply, I just want to be sure I'm understanding you and getting the most out of the case.

I've not blocked the gaps around the fans just yet, as I built it quite recently and haven't got round to that part yet. Should I use electrical tape or similar to cover the gaps around the fans?

Regarding the GN setup, they use Noctua fans on the 'standardized' test, which is 2x Noctua intake, and 1x Noctua exhaust. Now, GN isn't the be-all and end-all, however, they have dived deeper than most on thermals, and it does make me wonder why they would be using an exhaust, instead of 3x Intake. Although that could just as easily be that 2xIntake and 1xExhaust is the more compatible 'standardization'.

I can certainly confirm the second fan on the D15 not making much difference, as I attached it after high temps during testing and saw a slight improvement at best, around 3-5 degrees. I also found a review/comparison where the D15S was indeed only a few degrees above the D15, which corroborates it not making much difference. I'm yet to test using the second fan as an exhaust up top.

The GPU temps are certainly much better with the improved airflow in this case vs the one it replaced, which was the main objective and so that's brilliant. It's likely as suggested earlier in the thread, I've gone from the AIO grabbing cool air from outside, and warming the GPU with it, to the case having cool air from outside, and the GPU likely warming the CPU cooler, even if only slightly.

M
 
ProfitMajin said:
Hi All,

I'm looking to upgrade my existing case & CPU cooler in order to maximise the overclocking potential of my i7 4790k
--------
Background:

I have an older pc setup (4790k) in a Fractal Design Core 2300 case. I'm using an Arctic Liquid Freezer 240 (the 1st, not 2nd) upfront, but the tubes are at the top, and the front panel is enclosed, which are both limiting potential (and I can now hear pump/exchange whine).

Mobo is Asus z97 Pro Gamer
Ram is Kingston Beast 1866
GPU is Sapphire VEGA 56 Pulse

Desk space limits the new case to H475mmxD480mmxW230mm.
Desk space is open, other than the top of course (Ikea Fredde).

Cases
I've been looking at the following mid cases, which should fit in the space:
Phanteks p400a
Fractal Design Meshify C
Be Quiet dx500

And with potential issues:
Corsair 4000d Airflow (part-picker says the front panel won't work with mobo).
Lian Li 215 (potentially slightly too tall).

Cooling
I'm looking at:
Arctic Liquid Freezer II (240/280 depending on compatibility).

Big Air:
Noctua NH-D15 Chromax
Dark Rock Pro 4
(Although some cases state 160mm cooler limit, I've seen reddit posts of noctua d15 (165mm) in phanteks p400a)

Other smaller 'big air' coolers.

Question
Which of the following would provide the best/optimal solution:

1. Arctic 240mm in 'best' airflow case, such as Phanteks p400a (seems easiest/most compatible, but is it 'best'?).

2. Arctic 280mm in Lian Li 215 (case squeezed into the desk, ~20mm space for exhaust).
-280mm would limit me just to Lian Li 215 in order to install at the top of the case, to keep tubes on the bottom of the radiator.

3. Big Air squeezed into any of the mid cases (I've seen it fit, but would it limit airflow for GPU?)
-Also, would a Big Air cooler fit on an older board like mine? Looks like it would, but I'm not certain...

Ideally, I'd go with Big Air so that the cooler will last longer, and so be useful in a future upgrade, but it seems as though it'd have more compatibility issues, ironically.

TL;DR
looking for the 'best' cooling upgrade option for an aging setup, and it would be nice to also have it compatible with a future upgrade to Ryzen, for example.

Ta much!
M
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Really like how you presented your post! easy to see your plans, links to components, etc. really make it nice!

P400A 210x465x470mm (WxHxD) only has 160mm CPU clearance. Take a look at P500A 240x510x505mm (WxHxD) with 190mm with 190mm CPU clearance, more than enough for biggest coolers but just 30x45x35mm bigger overall (taller than you want) .. I think a better choice if you have the room. I haven't used these new case fans, but if they work as well as old Phanteks included case fans they will be good.

Meshify C is very good, but it's included fans are horrible .. but this is true of most stock case fans.

Corsair cases I've seen over the years were not very well constructed. All of the others are.

Lian Li make good cases. I don't now about the included fans. We want fans with about 1.3-1.5mm H2O pressure rating at about 1300-1500rpm.

I'm a big air cooler fan. They never go bad! Only the fan wear out, and that takes long, long time.

I would probably get Dark Rock Pro 4 over D15 Chromax, not that it's better because it's a couple degrees warmer, but it's £30 lower price
Mugen 5 is very good. So is Fuma 2.

Your Asus z97 Pro Gamer as about 52mm center CPU to near side of RAM and about 68mm center CPU to near side X4 and about 98mm near side x16 PCIe sockets. As long as you are not using close x4 PCIe socket no cooler clearance issues. Often a short X4 card will fit behind cooler.

Kingston Beast 1866 is 46.4mm tall (that's 41.4mm above CPU surface), bottom of front fan on Dark Rock Pro 42.8mm above CPU when fitted flush with top of cooler so no problems there .. fins reach 68mm toward PCIe sockets from center CPU, so again no problems.

I think you will find link below to basic guilde of how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow of interest. it's the basics of how airflow works and how to optimize case airflow for cool and quiet systems.
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/t...-i-put-my-temp-sensor.18564223/#post-26159770
 
Option 2 on that list is what im currently considering myself - but have questions about compatability, with respect to the fact the freezer 280 is 63mm deep, and is liable to overhang the motherboard slightly (which means in my case would sit over mosfet heatsink, and be very very close to ram slots - b450 tomahawk).
Did you see anywhere with that setup installed?? Im keen to check the clearances myself.
 
slunge said:
Option 2 on that list is what im currently considering myself - but have questions about compatability, with respect to the fact the freezer 280 is 63mm deep, and is liable to overhang the motherboard slightly (which means in my case would sit over mosfet heatsink, and be very very close to ram slots - b450 tomahawk).
Did you see anywhere with that setup installed?? Im keen to check the clearances myself.
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Hey. did you ever resolve this? I'm thinking to just get the biggest, widest recommended case (not the Lian Li, as it is beautiful case but worried about the number of fans required and noise generated).

Also want the Artic Freezer 280 so curious to know!
 
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