Upgrading my surround sound system

Mobster
Soldato
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Posts
13,072
I'd like to upgrade the sound in my quite small room (144 inches long by 125 inches wide).

I currently have:
  • AVR: Yamaha RX-V373
  • Speakers (all originally from the Onkyo HTP-038 HTIB):Front Left: Onkyo SKF-038
  • Centre: Onkyo SKC-038
  • Front Right: Onkyo SKF-038
  • Rear Left: Onkyo SKR-038
  • Rear Right: Onkyo SKR-038
  • Subwoofer: Cambridge Audio S80
The sub I think is weak so I'd like to upgrade that first. What can I get for around £300?
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Better sub and better centre speaker will give you the biggest positive change.

NEW:
Wharfedale SW150 @ £160 on final clearance. Be quick though. Stocks are running out fast.

Centre speaker - while there are choices from Dali, Q Acoustics, Mission, Tannoy, Monitor Audio and others in the £80 ~ £140 price bracket, you need to think long term and choose a centre from a range where you'd also buy the front L&R speakers. You see, where it's okay to mix and match the sub and, to a lesser degree, the surrounds; you really want to have the front three speakers from the same range. That way, you'll get a beeter blend across the front.

Speaker wire is often overlooked. If you're using the thin bell wire that came with the Onkyo kit, then something thicker will get more of the amp's power to the speakers. No need to go mad. Just a 100% copper cable at 1.5mm cross sectional area (CSA) and not some with hundreds of filaments. 40~80 strands is about the mark.

An alternative would be to upgrade the front three speakers and leave the sub for a later date. There are pros and cons here. Front sound stage will improve (mostly due to the centre spkr), and music will sound better too (L&R spkrs), bass will get better within the limits of the front three speakers, and possibly overtake the Onkyo sub.

If you're open to used, then your option become broader.
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
IMO, yes. If your budget is flexible, then it's worth the extra.

However, if your budget is fixed, I wouldn't compromise the front channel set-up for the sake of the sub.
 
Mobster
Soldato
OP
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Posts
13,072
IMO, yes. If your budget is flexible, then it's worth the extra.

However, if your budget is fixed, I wouldn't compromise the front channel set-up for the sake of the sub.

Budget is flexible mate, very flexible. I just want the best bang for my buck.

I'm sitting around 3.3m away from the fronts, sub is on the left of the left speaker (same distance from me), the rears are on the back wall to the side of me, so no room for 7.1 in this room but Atmos could be an option I suppose with front highs or speakers that bounce sound off the ceiling?

What sub would you recommend up to say £400?
 
Soldato
Joined
10 Jan 2007
Posts
4,910
Location
Warwickshire
I am using a Yamaha RX-V673, Tannoy Mercury center, front floor standing and bookshelf rears, I did have a Gemini sub, but sold it due to moving into a flat
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
If we're talking new subs, then the best bang for your buck is going to be something - or really anything - from the BK range. When you're buying direct from the factory then it's hard for any retail-only type product to compete with that sort of value.

The P12-300SB in either front firing (-FF) or down firing (-DF) version sits comfortably within your £400 budget. It's a 12" main driver plus a 12" passive driver in a sealed box. Top awards from AV Forums, Home Cinema Choice and Hi-Fi Choice. What Hi-Fi have never been fans of BK because it upsets their advertisers. I'm not saying that their reviews are biased towards the brands that pay for space in the mag, you understand...... ;) ;) ;)


For main speakers, you should really have a listen to some options and decide what suits your taste. With limited floor area, you're not going to have room to place floor-standers and give them the room they need to work without sounding boomy and overbearing unless they're very bass-lite to begin with. Rega Alya come to mind. Incredibly agile performers with a wonderful sense of musical timing; real toe-tapping speakers. However, since the Alyas have been discontinued for quite a while, and so has the Rega Senta centre speaker which was a rare beast at the best of times, then that's not really a sensible option used unless you drop incredibly lucky on someone selling a complete set. That leaves bookshelf speakers as the obvious alternative.

Pretty much anything in the £99 and above category is going to give you a fairly major step up from the Onkyo speakers. Going from the single driver per speaker design of the Onkyos to a two way design should yield sweeter treble and deeper bass, and more detail over-all. You'll still need to pay attention to positioning though. Anything that generates mid-bass needs to stay away from room corners. Positioning away from the back wall depends on the speaker design. Something large for a bookshelf speaker such as the Monitor Audio Bronze 2 needs about 8-12" (20-30cm) from the back wall. Wharfedale Diamond 220 can live with just a 3-5" gap, Dali Zensor 1 can be flat against the back wall. Position in from the side walls varies between 18" and 36" (50-100cm).

From the sound of your room layout and listening distance, my guess is your seating position is a sofa or chair up against the back wall. Stereo imaging is going to be a bit of a challenge then. The rough rule of thumb is that the speakers and seating position should form an equilateral triangle. That means you're the same distance to each speaker as the speakers are apart. If we take a side-wall gap of 20cm per speaker off the room width (125" = 317cm), and account for the speaker width, then that leaves about 260cm/102". A bit of Pythagoras gives a straight-line distance from the front wall speaker line to the ideal seating position of around 250cm (this accounts for the depth of speakers flat against the back wall). You sit another 80cm further back. Unless you can change the seating distance, - or music isn't so important - then that'll just have to be a compromise due to the room dimensions.

Getting Atmos to work in your room with your current speaker positions and up-firing speakers could be another challenge. The sound is going to bounce off the ceiling at the same angle that it hits. That means that whatever the angle set in the speaker, then that's the angle it will bounce back at from the ceiling. My guess is that whether you put up-firing at the front of the room or at the back, the reflected sound is always going to miss your listening position. You might have to rethink ATMOS unless you can either go in-ceiling above where you sit or find some up-firing speakers with a tilt facility.
 
Mobster
Soldato
OP
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Posts
13,072
Wow thanks @lucid!

Music is not a huge concern for me, I rarely use this system for music and if I do it is from Spotify.

What is the difference between down-firing and front-firing, do they sound different? I think the P12300-SB looks good. Will that alone provide a noticeable improvement with my current speakers?
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
There are no absolutes here because it depends what effect you're looking for...

Down-firing: shakes the floor better so good for home cinema "ka-boom!!", but results can vary with floor type e.g. suspended wood vs concrete/solid. DF and rear firing subs where the driver is designed to face the wall rather than in to the room are better at filtering out the above bandwidth harmonics since they don't travel round corners that well. Put more simply, the sound from these designs of subs rolls off more cleanly because the floor or wall acts as a sort of filter. That makes these subs a little harder to locate if the crossover is set to 80Hz or lower.

Front-firing: marginally faster initial transient response because the sound wave is directed in to the room, so you'll find that some of the music brands such as B&W, Q Acoustics, Monitor Audio favour front firing subs. Not all though; Tannoy, KEF, REL, Focal and other respected music brands do - or have done - down firing subs; and some of the more AV oriented brands such as SVS do front firing.

In the end, I think the build- and design-quality of the sub, plus how well the sub is positioned and set-up in the room, are all going to make a bigger impact than worrying about DF or FF configurations.


"Will that (the sub) alone provide a noticeable improvement with my current speakers?" - Honestly, No.

It'll be a huge step up from your Onkyo sub because of the driver size and how much extra power it has. But a sub alone can't make your existing centre speaker sound better other than over the limited crossover frequency where the two speakers overlap. The P12-300 goes up to 120Hz. That covers about the bottom 1/3rd of the adult male speaking vocal range, but it doesn't come close to the female range which starts at around 180Hz.

If you want to improve the sound of your system, then the centre speaker is really very important. Not counting the sub, roughly 70% of the sound you hear during the course of a movie comes from the centre speaker. The four or more remaining surrounds combined make up the other 30%, and out of them, it's the front pair that are the second hardest workers.

Do the centre and sub first for the biggest audible change.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Got my Gemini II arriving today.

I've heard good things about the Mass Audio 5.0 set, what are the opinions here. @lucid?

I like the Mass speakers. Sonically, they sound like you're listening to bigger bookshelf speakers; they have scale and they go pretty loud too. There's a lot in common with the far-more-expensive Monitor Audio Radius speakers, and in my book, that's no bad thing.

Styling is a very personal thing, but to me these look great too. I know that Q Acoustics speakers have a lot of fans, and I even bought some 20-series for my F-i-L when I got him a small stereo system, but he was with me at the time and he thought the shape was okay. I couldn't live with them though, or with the Q7000i which are the alternatives to a Mass system. I know that's shallow, but there's no point beating around the bush.

The sound of KEF eggs has improved progressively over time. The original 90's versions just sounded flat and boring at anything other than room shaking volumes. Later iterations have added more life without sacrificing the wide dispersal of the UniQ driver. They still need a bit of volume though before they come alive, so if listening at low volumes is something you do, then the MA Mass are a better option IMO.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
What's the view on speaker cable? I'm still using the thin one that came with the Onkyo speakers.

Does anyone have cheap but good recommendations for an improved cable?

Thin speaker cable strangles the performance of speakers and amps.

I wrote in some detail about speakers cables in another thread. In that one, I covered most of the main points such as why copper is important, and what thickness to go for, and why bi-wiring is good for the dealer but bad for the user. IMO there's little justification for fancy Hi-Fi speaker cable if it gets in the way of the basics of delivering power cleanly. Silver plating and fancy ways of wrapping the conductors won't make up for a lack of cross-sectional area. Have a read of the post from the thread here: https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/is-my-av-reciever-under-powered.18835308/#post-32231799

There were some recommendations for cables on sale at the time. They may or may not be available still. Once you know what to look for and what to avoid though then you can do your own searches for the right sort of bargain for you.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 May 2010
Posts
6,351
Location
Cheshire
Yeah, the Dualcon cable was one I picked out in the earlier thread.

As long as you don't buy solder-bucket- or crimp-on- banana plugs then what you should get is something with ones with screw-terminal fixings. All you need do is strip the wire (including the three centre conductors), twist it together and then screw down the fitting to grip it. You can see the screw in the barrel of the plug very clearly here.
 
Mobster
Soldato
OP
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Posts
13,072
Thanks @lucid.

Got the Gemini II installed and calibrated with YPAO, seems a bit weak though. Am I expecting too much? Not really getting any room shaking bass but wondered if you know any good sources to test this? YPAO set it to -6dB at about 9-10 o-clock. Anything higher than that it was said to -10dB which I understand to be the maximum.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Posts
9,514
You don't want a sub to be obvious that it's on. It should suppliment the system not overpower it.

However the Gemini is only a 150w 8" so don't expect room shaking bass. It's suitable for smaller room for music but not large rooms for action movies
 
Back
Top Bottom