VARcical Decision

I think rob’s takes are formed on what he hears on some radio garbo or something

But we absolutely should have a replay with Gerrard as special guest referee and City deducted 19 points
 
I do wonder how much Man City’s financial doping has contributed to this controversy. They’ve broken football to the extent that any team wanting to compete has to perform absolutely perfect and have perfect luck.
 
You cannot use the "without VAR" line as an excuse for issues with VAR because we do have it and we're suffering the consequences of it. I've always said and did again recently, with VAR we're trading off the atmosphere and emotion of the game in order to (hopefully) get more accurate and consistent decisions. Sadly we're currently only getting some of the positives of VAR but all of the negatives and the moment we start accepting poor decisions because 'without VAR we'd have still got that wrong' then there is no point having VAR.
I agree with you and not suggesting that we should accept bad decisions from VAR but I still find it feels a bit strange that the period when we have on average the most accurate decisions (since VAR introduced) is the also the period with seemingly the most controversy. It's like we've gone from 10% errors to 3% errors (made up numbers) yet have twice the drama.
I guess maybe it was because the absence of goalline tech / VAR could always be used as an excuse "oh human error, lino couldn't see that at full speed" and was generally brushed over apart from a few extreme scenarios like 1966 or Lampard's "goal", but then this scenario appears to be not a failure of the technology but again more of a human/communication error. So if we are prepared to pile in on human error now, why didn't we do it more in the past?

To be clear, I do think they need to review the processes and establish clearer comms, cricket is an example where in they nearly always seem to have a clear consistent process to run through with less ambiguous language that this Liverpool thing but I'll caveat that by saying the majority of 3rd umpire reviews are quite formulaic - front foot, does it hit bat or pad, ball tracking etc. Rock and roll the frames to see if a batsman if bat is grounded when bails come off etc. Then a clear statement back to the umpire "Recommend you stay with / change your original decision of out/not out". Football is a lot more 'random' with players in different positions every time, in cricket they have cameras specifically set up for front on / side on which helps the majority of calls, whereas in football the offsides are in random places, there's no equivalent of the camera at square used for run outs.
 
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And it begins. Expect this to happen all the time as clubs social media mock Klopp :cry:


There will be countless examples, I seen one when Drogba scored against United at old Trafford with the title on the line. Massive game.

It’s probably a good thing that it happened to Liverpool as there has been such a big out cry that it’ll hopefully spark a change.
 
One good thing to come out of this mess - apart from the obvious improvements to the var process - is the sheer number of people you thought possessed a modicum of intellect showing they really are borderline mentally challenged. The opposite is also true though, some people you thought were a bit of a joker have come out of this with some great, thoughtful takes.
 
There will be countless examples, I seen one when Drogba scored against United at old Trafford with the title on the line. Massive game.

It’s probably a good thing that it happened to Liverpool as there has been such a big out cry that it’ll hopefully spark a change.
An example of VAR reviewing a decision, being factually incorrect with a yes or no call, realising they made a mistake and not changing it or simply an error?
 
Does it matter? If the wrong decision was given no matter how its still wrong. Every team can feel aggrieved by more than one decision I'm sure.
You do understand the difference between a subjective decision (red card for a tackle or handball for a penalty) or even a missed offside due to camera angles not being available and what happened in the game right? Because by the look if it you really don't.
 
You do understand the difference between a subjective decision (red card for a tackle or handball for a penalty) or even a missed offside due to camera angles not being available and what happened in the game right? Because by the look if it you really don't.

When others can see an offside clearly isn't or is then it isn't subjective is it, its human error. This is the worst case of human error but it isn't the only case of human error.

What is required is to take the human element out of the equation. Work on an AI version that can make these decisions quicker and more accurately.
 
When others can see an offside clearly isn't or is then it isn't subjective is it, its human error. This is the worst case of human error but it isn't the only case of human error.

What is required is to take the human element out of the equation. Work on an AI version that can make these decisions quicker and more accurately.
OK you don't understand the difference. Glad we got that sorted.
 
I agree with you and not suggesting that we should accept bad decisions from VAR but I still find it feels a bit strange that the period when we have on average the most accurate decisions (since VAR introduced) is the also the period with seemingly the most controversy. It's like we've gone from 10% errors to 3% errors (made up numbers) yet have twice the drama.
I guess maybe it was because the absence of goalline tech / VAR could always be used as an excuse "oh human error, lino couldn't see that at full speed" and was generally brushed over apart from a few extreme scenarios like 1966 or Lampard's "goal", but then this scenario appears to be not a failure of the technology but again more of a human/communication error. So if we are prepared to pile in on human error now, why didn't we do it more in the past?

To be clear, I do think they need to review the processes and establish clearer comms, cricket is an example where in they nearly always seem to have a clear consistent process to run through with less ambiguous language that this Liverpool thing but I'll caveat that by saying the majority of 3rd umpire reviews are quite formulaic - front foot, does it hit bat or pad, ball tracking etc. Rock and roll the frames to see if a batsman if bat is grounded when bails come off etc. Then a clear statement back to the umpire "Recommend you stay with / change your original decision of out/not out". Football is a lot more 'random' with players in different positions every time, in cricket they have cameras specifically set up for front on / side on which helps the majority of calls, whereas in football the offsides are in random places, there's no equivalent of the camera at square used for run outs.
I think you've answered the question yourself. Pre-VAR we accepted that refs wouldn't make 100% accurate decisions when they've got one chance to view an incident at full speed. With VAR there are fewer excuses for mistakes happening and as such we're not as understanding of those mistakes. I also think the way in which we're using the technology and in particular the whole 'clear and obvious' line confuses things (for fans and officials) and creates more controversy. I've always been of the view that VAR for subjective calls is a waste of time but when you have a system that allows two identical incidents to result in two completely different outcomes and be told both decisions were correct, how are supporters meant to understand and accept what you're doing? Again I'm completely against VAR for subjective decisions but if you're going to continue with it, just allow the VAR to make whatever the correct decision is - forget about whether it's wrong enough to intervene because that just creates inconsistencies and more controversy.

I agree about the communication between the ref & var and said as much earlier in the thread. Hopefully one thing that comes from this incident is that because such a minor change would have prevented what happened from happening.
 
utterly pointless panel, 3-2 "would have" not given a yellow card - they've also never been a ref in their life, about as useful as any arm chair fan frankly
 
I've always been of the view that VAR for subjective calls is a waste of time but when you have a system that allows two identical incidents to result in two completely different outcomes and be told both decisions were correct, how are supporters meant to understand and accept what you're doing? Again I'm completely against VAR for subjective decisions but if you're going to continue with it, just allow the VAR to make whatever the correct decision is - forget about whether it's wrong enough to intervene because that just creates inconsistencies and more controversy.
The problem is it becomes subjective as to what a subjective call is, I mean pretty much all straight red card offences are subjective (was it violent conduct, was it a goalscoring opportunity, was the handball deliberate etc) to some degree, but people get incensed when general concensus is a card was given erroneously.
Offsides you sometimes have a situation where it really isn't clear, so "make whatever the correct decision is" becomes subjective i.e. one person says its offside and someone else doesn't, one person gives a penalty and another doesn't. We can use this forum as an example, we frequently have differences of opinion about onfield decisions.

If we want to completely eradicate subjective decisions from VAR you basically end up with it not being used because there's the potential for nearly every decision to be subjective.
 
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