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Venezuela the failed socialist state - Rising tensions.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by terley, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Blackjack Davy

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 16, 2009

    Posts: 2,960

    You're viewing everything through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. Most people clamouring for those things weren't even around to remember just how bad the raliways were. Nationalised industries were garbage due to underfunding and collosal ineptitude of government that only cares about votes and not how manage anything. Remember the Millenium Dome? Blairs pet vanity project? Yet another colossal waste of public money that was losing millions on an almost daily basis.

    Socialism should be left to basic services like collecting bins and not to running industries because it fundamentally fails to know to deal with a market based economy. What happened in the former Eastern Bloc should be proof enough of that. As for Venuzuala and Comrade Corbyn's championing it as a model economy well that should tell you everything you need to know about him and socialism in general. (And just why is the BBC so reluctant to bring that up anyway? If it was May or the govt they'd be all over it like a rash gleefully pointing it out and hammering politicians at every opportunity.)
     
  2. IronWarrior

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 8, 2009

    Posts: 4,413

    [​IMG]
     
  3. jamoor

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jun 22, 2005

    Posts: 8,249

    Location: Nottinghamshire

    Hong Kong's MTR
    Emirates airlines
    I'm sure theres more.
     
  4. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,579

    The airline is owned by a sovereign wealth fund in Dubai

    It was started with $10 million in start-up capital it was required to operate independently of government subsidy.

    It may well ultimately be solely state owned but crucially it isn't state run, and operates in a competitive market where it pays dividends on any profits.

    In summary a pretty poor rebuttal to the point that state run industries are generally operated rather poorly.

    I don't know about you but I'm spotting a pattern here? Again not a state run company. But rather a majority state owned company in this case which is listed on a stock exchange.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  5. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,132

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Venezuela's has everything to do with over reliance on a petrochemical economy, and virtually nothing to do with socialism.

    The entire nation was geared towards the production and export of oil, with no backup in the form of viable alternative industries. When the oil price tanked, the economy went with it.

    Local food production dropped to unsustainable levels a long time ago, making Venezuela reliant on imports largely purchased with oil money. Then oil prices fell. You can guess the rest.

    (Source).

    Of course, the crippling US sanctions and he outrageous levels of corruption haven't helped matters either.
     
  6. jsmoke

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 17, 2012

    Posts: 7,173

    So simple in some ways so complex in others.

    As usual money dominates everything.

    It's always weird to think people can't eat as they have no numbers in their bank account or coins in the hand.

    If only we could grow money on trees.
     
  7. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 39,674

    That only explains the economic aspect of it. It certainly doesn't explain the actions of the government in terms of sidelining the National Assembly, holding dodgy elections, ignoring a previous attempt at a no confidence vote etc..etc.. not to mention the handling of various protests/unrest. That is down to the authoritarian nature of the regimen which is all too common when it comes to socialism.

    The interim President exists in that same economic situation yet he wants fresh elections.

    (and before anyone wants to engage in some whataboutery - yes far right regimes are also authoritarian, but we're talking about Venezuela here)
     
  8. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 9,474

    I believe that aside from oil production, Venezuela is hugely involved in the drug trafficking business. The US is determined to go after the (foreign) suppliers of illegal drugs rather than the (local) consumers of illegal drugs.
     
  9. Psycho Sonny

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jun 21, 2006

    Posts: 30,177

    what about that town in america that has the second biggest natural reserve of clean drinking water. the governor then decided to let his buddies (capitalists) run the water and they took it from a different source which was full of lead and charged ridiculous sums for people to kill themselves?
     
  10. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,579

    Yawn.. . you largely lost your argument when you said..

    'the governor then decided to let his buddies'

    That's not 'capitalism' that's cronyism ...


    Nothing in a society run along capitalist lines prevents strong well enforced safety standards within which businesses can operate in regulated markets.

    Nice try but its an E - for me.....

    And ill think you find many examples of rather poor lax safety standards when it comes to socialist run industries. Eastern Europe and the former USSR are full of heavily polluted area that are the legacy of poorly run socialised industries with dirty inefficient end products like the trabant.

     
  11. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,579

    Venezuela's current problems are definetly partly to do with their reliance on oil products.

    But then part of the reason Venezuela became so relaiant on oil exports was because they killed of a lot of other industries with their socialist actions!

    Like for example their auto industry. .


    Its rather ridiculous to claim socialism has 'virtually nothing' to do with Venezuela's current plight.
     
  12. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,132

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Primarily.

    Nationalisation is not an exclusively socialist policy (it was popular in Western capitalist republics and democracies during the 40s) and since Venezuela's economy has remained capitalist, I'm not sure how it can be defined as a socialist nation.

    Chavez and Maduro have run authoritarian, dictatorial, semi-populist governments alongside a capitalist economy while largely ignoring the problems caused by corruption. There's not much room for socialism in this scenario.
     
  13. Caracus2k

    Mobster

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 4,579

    *facepalm* nationalisation is socialism in action i.e taken the means of production and distributuon from private hands into the 'collective' hands of the state. Perhaps you can actually name an actual socialist country so we can critique the ideology according to your standards?

    You'll get bonus points for

    1) claiming a Scandinavian country is a good example of a socialist one (pro tip they largely aren't socialist)

    And/ or

    2) claiming that we haven't had a 'real' socialist state yet...

    Countries in Europe pursuing socialist policies in the past (which have often been at least partially reverted to private ownership now) doesn't mean Venezuela isn't currently being run along socialist lines.


    Rather arbitrarily seizing and nationalising private industry and price controls are the hallmarks of capitalism now are they? That there isn't a total lack of private industry doesnt invalidate an assessment of the country as being run along socialist lines
     
  14. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,132

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    No, nationalism is a political ideology. Nationalisation is something else entirely, and as I've already pointed out, it is not unique to socialism.

    There aren't any. Every attempt at socialism has almost immediately degenerated into authoritarianism and/or dictatorship of some kind, ably assisted by corruption and nepotism. There's never been a truly socialist nation. Socialism only works as a thought experiment; it never works in reality. It can't. It's an inherently flawed system.

    That's not what I said. Are you going to address my post at some point, or just thrash wildly at a few straw men?

    Now you're shifting the goalposts to 'along socialist lines.' That's quite a climbdown from your original claim.

    Fact: in order to be a socialist nation, a country must have (a) a purely socialist form of government, and (b) a purely socialist economy. Venezuela has neither.
     
  15. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 22,132

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Maduro has now backflipped on his early elections offer, and ramped up his rhetoric against the White House:

    (Source).

    The Trump administration is now openly warning Maduro that he must leave office or face the consequences.

    Remember when people said 'Don't vote for Hillary because she'll keep meddling in other countries'?

    :D
     
  16. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 39,674

    The poster you're quoting referred to nationalisation. Why does being unique to socialism matter here? That other political ideologies also do something bad (not that nationalisation is necessarily always bad) doesn't seem to be particularly relevant here.
     
  17. Thecaferacer

    Hitman

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 550

    All petro-states run the risk of a Venezuela style meltdown. Authoritarian/dictatorial rule is a main feature as the government need direct control of its main source of income, especially if they haven't diversified.

    Norway used it's oil revenue to become the world's largest wealth fund, using it's oil revenue to invest and then fund societal investment with the proceeds. Saudi has tried buying up everything and anything to exert control on other countries, something with Venezuela hasn't done.

    Venezuela is actually a casualty of Saudi dumping the oil price around 2016 in order to put US producers out of business. The US didn't mind as it was making the Saudis sweat bullets whilst enjoying cheap oil and stockpiling their own domestic yield. The Arabic states are terrified the US will deliver a coup de grace when they can revert to relying solely on shale and their own stocks, bankrupting them overnight.
     
  18. IronWarrior

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    Joined: Jan 8, 2009

    Posts: 4,413

  19. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 62,691

    Iran<>Venezuela link isn't as crazy as it sounds and might somewhat be behind the US trying to precipitate things in Venezuela - Iran has increasingly been looking to partnerships in other countries to try and avoid US sanctions and surveillance of their activities such as military developments like vehicles and missiles.
     
  20. Minusorange

    Mobster

    Joined: Nov 25, 2005

    Posts: 3,921



    Hezbollah barely a thorn in Israels side, now large enough to expand into South America :rolleyes: