Wall mounting and projector advice

Caporegime
Joined
1 Nov 2003
Posts
35,691
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
"Project Bach Pad"

Hi all,

I'm looking for some advice on two subjects.

The first is wall mounting. Now, in terms of actually buying a bracket and fitting it, I've no problem with that. But the problem is, my TV doesn't have a VOSA mount. It's an entry level Panasonic Plasma TX-P50UT50B

However, when googling I've found brackets for it and I was under the assumption they all used a VOSA mount.

So a quick google images and some professional MSPaint inspections, are the highlighted areas where the bracket would attach?

GnwHIrg.jpg


Secondly, projectors.

So since splitting up with the GF. I'm looking to go full bachelor, and potentially look into a Projector setup. However the issue I have is that my ceilings are stupidly high. They must be 12ft at least.

So, in terms of a drop down projector screen, do they offer screens which would drop down far enough to bring it to a good level?

Also could someone run me through the costs of a screen and 1080p projector? Pros/Cons etc? I'm pretty DIY happy so I could fit it all myself, would be a fun challenge, so it's just pure purchasing costs really :)

Thanks :)
 
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Can't really help with the PJ screen advice, I have a wall painted in black widow mix (cost of about £45 for 110 inch screen).

As for the projector itself, what's your budget? I was on a tight budget for mine so was at the low end of 1080p PJs. Got myself a BenQ W1070 which I'm really pleased with - it was £500 and the picture is amazing. There is one slight negative with mine and that is fan noise but I don't think you'll suffer from it with your ceilings. In mine the PJ is only about 3 ft away from me and is practically stuck to the ceiling so the fans have work.

Some people are sensitive to a blurring colour effect caused by DLP projectors such as the BenQ. I'm not personally and none of my friends have mentioned anything. If you were sensitive to this the you'd need to look at LCD projectors. Epson are known to make good ones and go as far as your budget allows, really. Avoid LED for now. Not really bright enough. Also consider lamp costs as bulbs will only last X amount of hours (usually around 2 or so years) and they're not B&Q jobbies. They're anything from £150 each.

Cable management sounds like fun with ceilings like that. When I was setting up mine I'm sure I read somewhere about signal deg in HDMI cBling over a certain length, about 8 or 10m. Feel free to ask any questions, can't think of much more off the top of my head. Oh, might be worth looking at AV Forums.
 
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VESA brackets are what started off life as a standarisation for desktop LCD monitors. The VESA standard has expanded to encompass larger LCD/LED TVs. Plasmas never conformed to the VESA standard because they were much larger and much heavier. So I wouldn't worry about the plasma not being VESA standard. It makes no difference.

A universal wall bracket will generally cover a range of sizes that span from medium size VESA settings through to those required for plasma screens up to XX". You just choose a bracket that will handle the screen size and weight. That's it. The range of fixing holes on the bracket rails will accommodate the hole spacing on the back of the TV. In 10 years of fitting TV's to client's walls I only ever had bracket that didn't fit a TV, and that was because the customer bought his own and then lost some of the fixings. You'll be fine.

As for projectors.... Buy the best you can afford. Benq are cheap and cheerful (no disrespect), but Optoma's serious home cinema projectors (HD30 and above) are in a different league. The cheaper Optomas are good value but miss out on key features such as colour management. That might not sound so important at the moment, but it makes a huge difference to getting the most out of the projector. A well calibrated £1000 HD30 will kick the arse of most other projectors under £1800. The HD30 has just been superseded by the HD50. I haven't seen one in the flesh yet, so can't comment how well it will calibrate. If it's like the HD30 then it will be a giant killer.

Epsons are okay but don't really light my fire. The picture doesn't quite have enough of the mystery X ingredient to make me forget I'm watching an LCD projector.

Domestic projectors capable of doing a 7ft wide picture range in price from under £300 to well over £100,000 (yes, seriously). Most of the action for new users at at the entry level range under £2K. In that narrow price brand the focus of the products changes quite a lot.

At the real cheap end as the small business projectors that companies try to pass off as "great for home entertainment too" :rolleyes: They're often 4:3 aspect ratio with incredibly loud fans, very poor video picture processing, and they're geared towards brightness against office lighting rather than producing realistic colour and convincing shadow detail.

Around £500 there's the gaming and entertainment projectors. These do a pretty respectable job with video. They're bright without being too garish; 2000-3000 ANSI Lumens isn't uncommon. They're not too noisy. Some have 3D. They're a good choice for a home bar/games room where you're doing the equivalent of pub football at home.

At about £1000 things are starting to tilt towards serious film watching: better 1080p DLP chips than the cheaper products. There's less of a focus on brightness and more on really good video processing, accurate colour rendition, better blacks. The brightness isn't so high as the gaming machines. But that's not a problem when the projector isn't fighting so much against a lot of ambient light. They're still pretty poky though and have enough light power to do a reasonable job without getting the room totally blacked out.

£2000 - £3500 is where the dedicated cinema projectors start. JVC's range of DiLA projectors starts here. They've been the big noise for the last 10 years in the "up to £10,000" market. Sony keep dipping in and out. They're currently on a bit of a push and have both 1080p and true 4K product technologies on offer. Currently Sony is the only manufacturer offering true native 4K resolution at under £10,000.

On paper, none of these projectors have the raw light power to compete with the budget projectors. But in reality they have far superior blacks, better chips and lenses, and use less tricks to achieve their quoted brightness levels so the playing field is somewhat levelled out.


...and screens

Yes, there are manufacturers that will make you a screen with extra top black masking; enough so you can bridge the extra needed to deal with the high ceiling. Screenline is the first name that pops in to mind. You'll probably be looking at the thick end of a grand though. Not because the extra masking is so much more money, or that it's a special order. More that the basic qualities of the screen need to be much higher spec'd to have the capacity to deal with the additional material. So, whereas your cheap Chinese screens use a thin surface that sags a bit even in 16:9 standard form, and their motors and screen roller tube are rated just high enough to cope with the lighter screen; if you pushed them to deal with the thicker screen surface of a better screen then the Chinese mechanicals would soon fail. It's the same for their surfaces too. Adding a metre of extra top masking causes far too much sag and ripple in their thin materials. The basic quality of the two types of screen is poles apart.

All decent drop down screens will wall mount though. So if you can live with the screen case on the wall rather than up at ceiling height, there are some decent budget makes to tide you through until you settle on something worth a decent investment. Optoma's basic screens are okay. There's always the used route as well. Look for Draper, Screenline, Da-Lite. They're medium to higher-end brands worth paying for even as used buys. Top of the tree is Stewart. Their surfaces are simply stunning. The pictures really pop.
 
I'm running an optoma HD20 1080p PJ for the past year and was running on old panasonic lcd 720p PJ before that. Having heard about some peoples sensitivity to DLP projectors and the rainbow effect, i was a bit wary about buying one. Nothing in my budget of £300 used could get me anything else that did 1080p with little use of the lamp, so i got an HD20. I'm very pleased with the result. The image is sharp and pops out the screen. Colours are vibrant. In all honesty, it looks as good as my new samsung 32" 1080p TV. an absolute steal for £280 used and a big improvement over the panasonic 720p lcd before it. Black levels aren't the best, but a Hoya 52mm Nd2 filter made a big improvement, and the rainbow effect is non existent, unless i move my eyes very quickly from far left to far right non stop, which nobody does anyway so it's a non issue.
 
Thanks for the feedback on that :)

What is this rainbowing? I've never heard of it.

Also, when wall mounting, can someone tell me what the proper height should be? I always thought that the top of the TV should be just above eye level? I see people put it way up on the wall and can only think they must get achey necks after a while?
 
It depends how far away you are. Think there is a specific amount of degrees you should be looking no higher than something like 15. But it is personal preference. I like to be between half way and 2/3rds up but I do use it for gaming as well so looking up causes a bit of strain for me.

Also aside from budget are you planning to black out the room? If not certain PJ's/Screen combos will give much better results in a lighter room but you would probably have to spend more on a screen than you would expect.

Is all about your budget :)
 
Thanks for the feedback on that :)

What is this rainbowing? I've never heard of it.

This is my understanding. It may not be entirely accurate, but AFAIK you only get rainbow effect (RBE) on DLP projectors. The way in which DLP works, light from the lamp goes through a colour wheel which is span via a motor. It's the mismatch of the wheel RPM and the FPS on the screen. It's not so much an issue on modern single chip projectors but was more of a problem on older single chip DLP projectors pre 2000's
 
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Thanks for the feedback on that :)

What is this rainbowing? I've never heard of it.

Also, when wall mounting, can someone tell me what the proper height should be? I always thought that the top of the TV should be just above eye level? I see people put it way up on the wall and can only think they must get achey necks after a while?

I don't think there's really a set height. It's whatever you feel comfortable at. I do see peoples TV's through their windows mounted above the fireplace. Looks a bit saft and would cause pain in your back/shoulders and neck i should imagine.

I personally like my telly low down about 14" off the ground, but i don't have much choice because the tv has to be low enough as not to block the PJ screen behind it.
 
It depends how far away you are. Think there is a specific amount of degrees you should be looking no higher than something like 15. But it is personal preference. I like to be between half way and 2/3rds up but I do use it for gaming as well so looking up causes a bit of strain for me.

Also aside from budget are you planning to black out the room? If not certain PJ's/Screen combos will give much better results in a lighter room but you would probably have to spend more on a screen than you would expect.

Is all about your budget :)

OK I have included a crudely drawn layout of the piece of room. The brown box is the 'sofa' and the blue one is the 'TV'

GhZgxw8.jpg


I also measured my ceiling height, turns out I was a bit off...its 8ft 10! 12ft might have been exaggerating a tad :p

So as you can see from the image I'll be sitting roughly 9-10ft from the TV. I don't want it mega low or mega high either, I just wondered if there was a guided height :)

Budget wise - well to be honest without going ridiculous nothing is impossible. I earn good money and only have myself to spend it on. That's not saying start recommending 10k projectors but something to give good performance while using a bit of savvy and thinking "that's not 'that' expensive" :p sorry I know it's not an answer but until I have a better idea of what this realistically could cost then I'm a finger in the air kind of person.

This is my understanding. It may not be entirely accurate, but AFAIK you only get rainbow effect (RBE) on DLP projectors. The way in which DLP works, light from the lamp goes through a colour wheel which is span via a motor. It's the mismatch of the wheel RPM and the FPS on the screen. It's not so much an issue on modern single chip projectors but was more of a problem on older single chip DLP projectors pre 2000's

Ah cool so not entirely an issue nowadays?
 
Pretty certain you could get a screen that pulls up from the floor, may solve your ceiling issue.
 
Can't really help with the PJ screen advice, I have a wall painted in black widow mix (cost of about £45 for 110 inch screen).

As for the projector itself, what's your budget? I was on a tight budget for mine so was at the low end of 1080p PJs. Got myself a BenQ W1070 which I'm really pleased with - it was £500 and the picture is amazing. There is one slight negative with mine and that is fan noise but I don't think you'll suffer from it with your ceilings. In mine the PJ is only about 3 ft away from me and is practically stuck to the ceiling so the fans have work.

Some people are sensitive to a blurring colour effect caused by DLP projectors such as the BenQ. I'm not personally and none of my friends have mentioned anything. If you were sensitive to this the you'd need to look at LCD projectors. Epson are known to make good ones and go as far as your budget allows, really. Avoid LED for now. Not really bright enough. Also consider lamp costs as bulbs will only last X amount of hours (usually around 2 or so years) and they're not B&Q jobbies. They're anything from £150 each.

Cable management sounds like fun with ceilings like that. When I was setting up mine I'm sure I read somewhere about signal deg in HDMI cBling over a certain length, about 8 or 10m. Feel free to ask any questions, can't think of much more off the top of my head. Oh, might be worth looking at AV Forums.

Hey man, sorry I never replied to your post originally.

Thanks for information. Budget wise, I'm sort of playing this by ear for now. Basically I haven't set a budget, this is new territory for me I don't know the costs or what to expect. Cable management won't be too bad, I full access to under the floors so even though this is going to be a few months in the progress I can buy a nice long HDMI cable and run it under the floor and leave it behind my sofa so when the PJ does go up I can conduit up the wall :) - I'll look up about signal degrading over distance.

VESA brackets are what started off life as a standarisation for desktop LCD monitors. The VESA standard has expanded to encompass larger LCD/LED TVs. Plasmas never conformed to the VESA standard because they were much larger and much heavier. So I wouldn't worry about the plasma not being VESA standard. It makes no difference.

A universal wall bracket will generally cover a range of sizes that span from medium size VESA settings through to those required for plasma screens up to XX". You just choose a bracket that will handle the screen size and weight. That's it. The range of fixing holes on the bracket rails will accommodate the hole spacing on the back of the TV. In 10 years of fitting TV's to client's walls I only ever had bracket that didn't fit a TV, and that was because the customer bought his own and then lost some of the fixings. You'll be fine.

Hi mate, I'll reply to this in chunks, it'll be far easier for me. Thanks for the confirmation on VESA :)

As for projectors.... Buy the best you can afford. Benq are cheap and cheerful (no disrespect), but Optoma's serious home cinema projectors (HD30 and above) are in a different league. The cheaper Optomas are good value but miss out on key features such as colour management. That might not sound so important at the moment, but it makes a huge difference to getting the most out of the projector. A well calibrated £1000 HD30 will kick the arse of most other projectors under £1800. The HD30 has just been superseded by the HD50. I haven't seen one in the flesh yet, so can't comment how well it will calibrate. If it's like the HD30 then it will be a giant killer.

Ok that's good to know. What features specifically should I be looking for?

Domestic projectors capable of doing a 7ft wide picture range in price from under £300 to well over £100,000 (yes, seriously). Most of the action for new users at at the entry level range under £2K. In that narrow price brand the focus of the products changes quite a lot.

At the real cheap end as the small business projectors that companies try to pass off as "great for home entertainment too" :rolleyes: They're often 4:3 aspect ratio with incredibly loud fans, very poor video picture processing, and they're geared towards brightness against office lighting rather than producing realistic colour and convincing shadow detail.

Around £500 there's the gaming and entertainment projectors. These do a pretty respectable job with video. They're bright without being too garish; 2000-3000 ANSI Lumens isn't uncommon. They're not too noisy. Some have 3D. They're a good choice for a home bar/games room where you're doing the equivalent of pub football at home.

At about £1000 things are starting to tilt towards serious film watching: better 1080p DLP chips than the cheaper products. There's less of a focus on brightness and more on really good video processing, accurate colour rendition, better blacks. The brightness isn't so high as the gaming machines. But that's not a problem when the projector isn't fighting so much against a lot of ambient light. They're still pretty poky though and have enough light power to do a reasonable job without getting the room totally blacked out.

£2000 - £3500 is where the dedicated cinema projectors start. JVC's range of DiLA projectors starts here. They've been the big noise for the last 10 years in the "up to £10,000" market. Sony keep dipping in and out. They're currently on a bit of a push and have both 1080p and true 4K product technologies on offer. Currently Sony is the only manufacturer offering true native 4K resolution at under £10,000.

On paper, none of these projectors have the raw light power to compete with the budget projectors. But in reality they have far superior blacks, better chips and lenses, and use less tricks to achieve their quoted brightness levels so the playing field is somewhat levelled out.

Fantastic information, I'm probably going to be somewhere around the £1000 mark from the looks of it. It's only going to be used for films nights at the end of the day. What brands are recommended other than whats mentioned?

...and screens

Yes, there are manufacturers that will make you a screen with extra top black masking; enough so you can bridge the extra needed to deal with the high ceiling. Screenline is the first name that pops in to mind. You'll probably be looking at the thick end of a grand though. Not because the extra masking is so much more money, or that it's a special order. More that the basic qualities of the screen need to be much higher spec'd to have the capacity to deal with the additional material. So, whereas your cheap Chinese screens use a thin surface that sags a bit even in 16:9 standard form, and their motors and screen roller tube are rated just high enough to cope with the lighter screen; if you pushed them to deal with the thicker screen surface of a better screen then the Chinese mechanicals would soon fail. It's the same for their surfaces too. Adding a metre of extra top masking causes far too much sag and ripple in their thin materials. The basic quality of the two types of screen is poles apart.

All decent drop down screens will wall mount though. So if you can live with the screen case on the wall rather than up at ceiling height, there are some decent budget makes to tide you through until you settle on something worth a decent investment. Optoma's basic screens are okay. There's always the used route as well. Look for Draper, Screenline, Da-Lite. They're medium to higher-end brands worth paying for even as used buys. Top of the tree is Stewart. Their surfaces are simply stunning. The pictures really pop.

Thanks again for the recommendations, my only concern with wall mounting the drop down screen is making sure it is far enough away from the wall so it goes infront of the TV everytime and doesn't knock it/rest it. I still want the TV on the wall, I cba to wait a few minutes for a bulb to warm up each time I want to watch anything at all, the projector is for movies only.
 
Ok that's good to know. What features specifically should I be looking for?
If you're looking at projectors around the £1000 mark then they're all going after the "everyman" market. So they'll do the lot - 1080p, zoom lens, remote control, 3D (though the eyewear may be optional), built in speaker (pathetic, but it's there anyway), multiple inputs (though you're only going to use HDMI probably), bright enough for use even with some room lights on; good for movies and games and TV blah blah blah.

It's only once you get up in price to over £2000 that you start to get motorized zoom lenses with memory zoom. This is for use with very wide screens (21:9 aspect ratio) so that Blu-ray have as little black border top and bottom as possible and make the biggest image. Then 16:9 stays the same height but the picture is zoomed down so it is pillar boxed (black bars left and right). IOt's possible to do this sort of thing with most projectors with a decent zoom lens. But if the lens is manual then you have to make the adjustments by had. I wouldn't worry about this sort of thing though if this is your first projector.

The other really important feature to check is the throw ratio. This is the relationship between the distance from the screen and the image size created. Some projectors have lenses that suit very small rooms or where the projector is on a coffee table between the viewer and the screen. This is mostly gaming projectors used for ad-hoc set-ups. At the other end of the range are those projectors that have a quite long throw.

Each projector with a zoom lens will give two numbers denoting the minimum and maximum ends of the lens range. They're a simple multiplier: Screen width times by X = closest throw distance. Screen width times by Y = furthest throw distance.

If you're looking at a Nov/Dec purchase then you've plenty of time to get a handle on working with these numbers and seeing how various projectors might fit in your room.

When it comes to planning the install, it's worth remembering that pretty much all projectors in your planned price range have a lens offset. That means they throw an image up (or down when ceiling mounted) so the projector is aligned roughly with the bottom edge of the screen when table top mounted, or inverted and mounted level with the top white edge of the screen when wall or ceiling mounted. Plan your cable lengths accordingly! There's also a feature on some projectors called Lens Shift. This is the ability to jiggle the image up/down/left/right to some degree to help screen alignment. Lens shift won't let you do daft things like put the projector in the corner of the room. But it will make what I presume will be a DIY install a lot easier.


Fantastic information, I'm probably going to be somewhere around the £1000 mark from the looks of it. It's only going to be used for films nights at the end of the day. What brands are recommended other than whats mentioned?
There's not a huge amount of models in proper home cinema projectors at a grand or less. Optoma and Epson and Benq take the lion's share of the market because they have multiple models at all the key price points for each application. Infocus recently dipped back in with the IN8606HD (<£700 for 1080p) but I haven't seen that in retail distribution, only through the online merchants, so that's not a good indicator of performance.


Thanks again for the recommendations, my only concern with wall mounting the drop down screen is making sure it is far enough away from the wall so it goes infront of the TV everytime and doesn't knock it/rest it. I still want the TV on the wall, I cba to wait a few minutes for a bulb to warm up each time I want to watch anything at all, the projector is for movies only.

As regards TV position, if you're bridging between TV and a projection screen then you'll need the TV a little higher than is would be on a TV stand. I'd suggest splitting the screen height in 3. The bottom 1/3rd below your seated eye line, and so the upper 2/3rds above. Average seated eye line for adults is around 40~44" from floor level.

You need to budget for a sound system with a proper centre speaker. That speaker will go below the TV. As the screen comes down then the bottom edge will park so it covers the TV but not the speaker.
 
I have a 720p PJ and the images goes straight onto the wall without a screen.

I set up the whole room for under 1k, ill link a vid if you want.

It's not 1080p but i'm more than happy with it.
 
Yes please for the video :)

I'll definitely need the screen as I'm planning to run it alongside a TV, for the reason being that I don't want to wait 5 minutes to check the weather :p
 
Lucid et all, video deg was mentioned for signals over a certain distance (9-10m) does anyone know the answer behind this? I'm talking about over a HDMI connection.

Many thanks!
 
If you're looking at projectors around the £1000 mark then they're all going after the "everyman" market. So they'll do the lot - 1080p, zoom lens, remote control, 3D (though the eyewear may be optional), built in speaker (pathetic, but it's there anyway), multiple inputs (though you're only going to use HDMI probably), bright enough for use even with some room lights on; good for movies and games and TV blah blah blah.

It's only once you get up in price to over £2000 that you start to get motorized zoom lenses with memory zoom. This is for use with very wide screens (21:9 aspect ratio) so that Blu-ray have as little black border top and bottom as possible and make the biggest image. Then 16:9 stays the same height but the picture is zoomed down so it is pillar boxed (black bars left and right). IOt's possible to do this sort of thing with most projectors with a decent zoom lens. But if the lens is manual then you have to make the adjustments by had. I wouldn't worry about this sort of thing though if this is your first projector.

Whilst you say they will do the lot is there anything absolutely essential that I must have? Like you mentioned colour management in another post?

The other really important feature to check is the throw ratio. This is the relationship between the distance from the screen and the image size created. Some projectors have lenses that suit very small rooms or where the projector is on a coffee table between the viewer and the screen. This is mostly gaming projectors used for ad-hoc set-ups. At the other end of the range are those projectors that have a quite long throw.

Each projector with a zoom lens will give two numbers denoting the minimum and maximum ends of the lens range. They're a simple multiplier: Screen width times by X = closest throw distance. Screen width times by Y = furthest throw distance.

If you're looking at a Nov/Dec purchase then you've plenty of time to get a handle on working with these numbers and seeing how various projectors might fit in your room.

You've answered a question I had for you. After looking I'm thinking of roughly an 80" screen so now you've given me the calculation I can make sure said project has the correct throw ratio. Do I have to worry about distortion if it's at an angle? Or will it be able to correct for that?

When it comes to planning the install, it's worth remembering that pretty much all projectors in your planned price range have a lens offset. That means they throw an image up (or down when ceiling mounted) so the projector is aligned roughly with the bottom edge of the screen when table top mounted, or inverted and mounted level with the top white edge of the screen when wall or ceiling mounted. Plan your cable lengths accordingly! There's also a feature on some projectors called Lens Shift. This is the ability to jiggle the image up/down/left/right to some degree to help screen alignment. Lens shift won't let you do daft things like put the projector in the corner of the room. But it will make what I presume will be a DIY install a lot easier.

Brilliant because without this I'd imagine it takes a hell of a lot of careful precision fitting to make sure both the projector and the screen are in exactly the right place? And I don't know about you but if it was out but 5mm on one side that would bug the hell out of me :p


There's not a huge amount of models in proper home cinema projectors at a grand or less. Optoma and Epson and Benq take the lion's share of the market because they have multiple models at all the key price points for each application. Infocus recently dipped back in with the IN8606HD (<£700 for 1080p) but I haven't seen that in retail distribution, only through the online merchants, so that's not a good indicator of performance.

I know you mentioned the HD30 for Optoma, were there any other specific models you would recommend taking a look at?

As regards TV position, if you're bridging between TV and a projection screen then you'll need the TV a little higher than is would be on a TV stand. I'd suggest splitting the screen height in 3. The bottom 1/3rd below your seated eye line, and so the upper 2/3rds above. Average seated eye line for adults is around 40~44" from floor level.

You need to budget for a sound system with a proper centre speaker. That speaker will go below the TV. As the screen comes down then the bottom edge will park so it covers the TV but not the speaker.

Ok well I ordered the bracket last night, I wasn't looking to have the TV that much higher than the TV stand as I wouldn't want neck ache etc, so where you're talking about sounds about right for me, I'd need to measure though to check.

What I need to look at next is screens and decide if I want a wall mounted one or a ceiling one really. I haven't had a proper chance to look at them but now I know at least what size I want, that's a start :)
 
I used this tool to calculate how close/far I wanted my projector and the picture size etc.

Lens shift is quite useful. It allows you to move the image up or down without becomming trapezoid as you would expect. Some projectors allow you to make keystone adjustments to do this but keystone adjustments should only be done as a last resort as it shaves pixels off in order to achieve a square imagine.

If you have around a grand to spend I recommend you go over to AV Forums and start a spec me thread. Also read reviews. Not only will they point you towards your projector but they'll also help give you a further understanding of what's important and of their workings.
 
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