Was jesus born on december 25th?

[SexyGreyFox]

No, many of us think he existed, but don't think he could turn water in to wine .

I read a book many years ago that took some of the 'magic tricks' of Jesus and put them a different way.
For instance (according to the book), the Essenes used many phrases like 'Turn a cows ear into a silk purse' and one such phrase was 'Turning water into wine'.
This actually translated into turning a non believer into a believer which to me makes a lot more sense.
Also a person was declared dead when they were an unbeliever so 'Raising the dead' was actually turning a non believer into a believer.

There was also another section about Moses bringing the people out of Egypt and 3 'miracles'.

1) birds landed at their feet when they were hungry
2) he tapped a rock and water came out
3) When they were hungry they found Manna from Heaven

Explanations -

1) Birds land at the edge of the Red Sea after flying for a long time and locals there today just pick the birds off the beach for food

2) This is something every Nomad does today because they know where water collects

3) Manna From Heaven is a plant that weeps onto the ground and the sun bakes it and is still found today.

Obviously all the above could be rubbish but I enjoyed the book and it explained the magic that I did not want to believe.

 

[Jamesdavid3]

jesus is not real, its just stories which have been past down

 

[Mr^B]

Christmas is an odd concept because you don't see people who aren't Muslim celebrating Ramadan (sp?) or other such things do you? So why Christmas? People on a whole don't celebrate things they don't believe in, yet Christmas is celebrated by a lot of religions in this country, because it "fits" hence why I think it's a bit hypocritical.

The memorial service is to celebrate Christ's death - as stipulated in the Bible.

The gatherings, or assemblies or what have you are not celebrations in any way, it's just like a big meeting.

Christmas isn't celebrated because it isn't said in the Bible to be celebrated, if it was, then it would be.

If you base your religion on scriptures, then you would do as they do and don't say right? So JWs are not celebrating Christmas etc, because it doesn't say to, it's not to be different, it's just to stick with what the Bible teaches..

You're missing the point.

The people celebrating it aren't religious.

The main concepts that people associate with Christmas (tree, presents, Santa Claus, Turkey) aren't religious.

Where's the hypocrisy in non-religious people celebrating a non-religious event?

Hypocrisy would be something like hanging Christmas decorations in a church, having tinsel on the nativity, that sort of thing.

 

[Belly]

I believe he was born in a stable but that doesn’t make him a donkey

 

[izzy eckerslike]

Christian mythology at it's finest

 

[thevet]

new testament says he was...old testament says he was not...maybe the whole lot of it is made up to brainwash the masses

 

[mollymoo]

jesus is not real, its just stories which have been past down

Passed down. Jeez.

 

[mollymoo]

I believe he was born in a stable but that doesn’t make him a donkey

Thats ever so slightly BNP my friend a similar phrase to the national front of the 70's

 

[Lightnix]

As far as I'm concerned, Christmas is merely the celebration of Winter, and the beginning of the period in which the days start becoming longer. Any theistic undertones it may have are merely as a result of people being misinformed by what is in effect the Christian marketing machine. I think I might start celebrating it on the 20th/21st and call it the Winter Solstice than, but then I think people might start thinking I've joined a pagan religion or something. Also by calling it something other than Christmas I feel I'm being too politically correct.

 

[Vonhelmet]

new testament says he was...old testament says he was not...maybe the whole lot of it is made up to brainwash the masses

I'm not even going to ask you for bible references as I know for a fact they aren't there. You're wrong. The bible says nothing in either testament about the date, though the time of year can be inferred from the new testament account. It's more likely spring than winter though.

 

[Tefal]

new testament says he was...old testament says he was not...maybe the whole lot of it is made up to brainwash the masses

Got a reference to the passages?


Or are you just believing what some random on the internet told you?

 

[Vonhelmet]

Got a reference to the passages?


Or are you just believing what some random on the internet told you?

As a random on the internet, I resent the implication of that slur!

 

[Uriel]

As a random on the internet, I resent the implication of that slur!

I resemble that remark!

 

[ShaolinDreams]

But he was not born on the 25. It was a Roman festival that was hijacked. The Christmas tree is hijacked from pagan rituals. All to help increase church numbers. Things like Christmas are not in the bible and as such aren't religious they are a cultural thing.

also trees were adorned with candles to encourage the sun to rise again. another part of christmas taken from pagan winter festival Yuletide!

I'm sorry. What? It really amuses me that people can talk so much rubbish without investigating what they're saying. Jesus lived, He died, He rose again.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/the-case-for-christ.htm

that whole 'christ died and risen again thing', could possibly be taken from pagan winter solstice beliefs too. replace jesus with the sun, think about it. to be fair it makes more sense to celebrate the coming of the sun again especially back in though days. Yule (germanic pagan festival ) and Saturnalia (roman pagan festival) Apparently the early calothic church had difficulty stopping these pagans from celebrating their winter festivals so they merged their beliefs into these pagan festivals, you cant beat them join em sort of thing. Merry Yuletide Everyone the sun is coming back wooohoooo!!! got a feeling 2010 might be a good one

 

[yoyo50]

December 25th, 1642. Julian calendar. Sir Issac Newton is born. Jesus, however, was actually born in the summer. His birthday was moved to coincide with the traditional pagan holiday that celebrates the winter solstice with lit fires and slaughtered guts, which frankly sounds like more fun than twelve hours of Church with my mother, followed by fruit cake.

 

[Angilion]

[..]
All the historical evidence militates against this theory. Christians were the least powerful people in the Roman empire for at least two three decades after Christianity first emerged and spent most of that time being violently persecuted. Christianity certainly wasn't started as a power grab.

i) Initial failure to achieve a goal doesn't mean the goal cannot have existed.
ii) All the historical evidence? Christianity dominated much of the world for a very long time.

Christianity wasn't violently persecuted initially. That was mostly down to Nero, who scapegoated Christians after the fire in 64 because they were widely seen as being weirdoes with bizarre beliefs and so he thought they'd make a good scapegoat group. Although he might have been right to blame them for the fire - violent religious uprisings do happen. After Nero, Christians were mostly left alone for the next ~250 years, until they took over the empire. A couple of emperors persecuted them, but most didn't.

 

[Angilion]

December 25th, 1642. Julian calendar. Sir Issac Newton is born. Jesus, however, was actually born in the summer. His birthday was moved to coincide with the traditional pagan holiday that celebrates the winter solstice with lit fires and slaughtered guts, which frankly sounds like more fun than twelve hours of Church with my mother, followed by fruit cake.

Saturnalia (the main festival Christmas was targetted at) was a lot more fun. After a giving of gifts (tradtionally something which was to be burnt, especially a simple wax taper) and the solemn religious ceremony (which did include animal sacrifice), it was a riotous party in which everyone pretended to be of equal social rank (a massive change in ancient Rome) and the rigid public morality of ancient Rome was put aside. Slaves could drink with patricians, who could sing and dance in the street. Most people were soon drunk. The Romans found it so much fun that they extended it to a week.

So if you go out partying, get drunk, feast, behave lewdly or all of the above...you can truthfully say that you're having a genuinely traditional Christmas!

 

[TheMightyTen]

Saturnalia (the main festival Christmas was targetted at) was a lot more fun. After a giving of gifts (tradtionally something which was to be burnt, especially a simple wax taper) and the solemn religious ceremony (which did include animal sacrifice), it was a riotous party in which everyone pretended to be of equal social rank (a massive change in ancient Rome) and the rigid public morality of ancient Rome was put aside. Slaves could drink with patricians, who could sing and dance in the street. Most people were soon drunk. The Romans found it so much fun that they extended it to a week.

So if you go out partying, get drunk, feast, behave lewdly or all of the above...you can truthfully say that you're having a genuinely traditional Christmas!

Except Sturnalia ended on the 23rd by the time Christianity was being transplanted by the Roman establishment Sol Invictus was the 'official' feast on the 25th

 

[Angilion]

Except Sturnalia ended on the 23rd by the time Christianity was being transplanted by the Roman establishment Sol Invictus was the 'official' feast on the 25th

i) Saturnalia is a much older festival and influenced Mithraism in the Roman empire.

ii) Saturnalia and the festival celebrating the (re)birth of the Invincible Sun ran together to a large extent.

iii) Christmas customs are based more on Saturnalia than Sol Invictus. The giving of gifts, for example.

I'm well aware of the dates of the two. See posts 86 and 101.

 

[Belly]

Saturnalia was a lot more fun.

After a giving of gifts - tradtionally something which was to be burnt.

It was a riotous party in which everyone pretended to be of equal social rank and the rigid public morality aside.

Slaves could drink could sing and dance in the street. Most people were soon drunk.

The fun that they extended it to a week.

So if you go out partying, get drunk, feast, behave lewdly or all of the above...you can truthfully say that you're having a genuinely traditional Christmas!

I don't know about "Saturnalia", to me it sounds like a normal "Saturday" night in Liverpool. The traditional burning possibly someone's BMW (Break My Windows)?